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Suggestion for CSM-inspired requirement to post on forums

Author
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-01-28 20:10:47 UTC
I'd like to discuss applying the new requirement that CSM candidates now have to also be applied to forums posters.

If you control a character that is well known in the EVE community, CCP should require you to post here under that identity and not one of an alt or a lesser known character.

It will help fighting against alt-information, and put the true perspectives from each posting players in a better light.

Candidate for CSM XII

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#2 - 2017-01-28 20:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
No.

People should be able to post on whatever character they like.

Using different characters can help lend credibility to an argument at times.

For example, Scip is my main (with >8000 posts in the forum) and if there is a topic that is pvp related, it is easy for someone to look at my killboard and see where my pvp experience lies and make a judgement whether I might know what I am talking about in that particular thread.

However, if I post on Scip in relation to industry or hauling, that's far less obvious. So in those threads, I instead post on my industry alt, who also has a killboard littered with the occasional blockade runner loss to bubble camps and a very industry focused corp history. In a similar vein, others can gain some independent measure of whether the information I post with her is based on actual experience in game, or just sperg/noise.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#3 - 2017-01-28 20:23:23 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
No.
People should be able to post on whatever character they like.


Of course! agendas are so much easier to hide this way!

Candidate for CSM XII

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#4 - 2017-01-28 20:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Borat Guereen wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
No.
People should be able to post on whatever character they like.


Of course! agendas are so much easier to hide this way!

I would hope someone running for the CSM would be able to think a bit deeper on an issue than that.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2017-01-28 22:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
No.
People should be able to post on whatever character they like.


Of course! agendas are so much easier to hide this way!

I would hope someone running for the CSM would be able to think a bit deeper on an issue than that.


you kidding read the stuff he has posted in the cyno thread on this paged. the guy is trying to "help the little guy" by screwing him over



as to the ops idea



as some one who has been personally targeted in game because of things i have said on the forums -10000 people should be free to express their ideas no matter what they are even if they fear they may be targeted for those ideas. many of us don't feel we need to hid but some out there do and their ideas are no less valuable


something that really sucks over all as i was interested in his Minarchist space thing too :/
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#6 - 2017-01-28 22:53:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
No.
People should be able to post on whatever character they like.


Of course! agendas are so much easier to hide this way!

I would hope someone running for the CSM would be able to think a bit deeper on an issue than that.


you kidding read the stuff he has posted in the cyno thread on this paged. the guy is trying to "help the little guy" by screwing him over

as to the ops idea

as some one who has been personally targeted in game because of things i have said on the forums -10000 people should be free to express their ideas no matter what they are even if they fear they may be targeted for those ideas. many of us don't feel we need to hid but some out there do and their ideas are no less valuable

something that really sucks over all as i was interested in his Minarchist space thing too :/


I have been there too.. In fact I created Borat Guereen as an alt to fight against the system because of the very same reason initially. At the time, my other alts had assets to lose, but since I have re-organized myself to avoid this kind of issues, and I also had had assets destroyed before that because of what I had posted under my main alts.

I truly believe the alt system helps more the power players than the little guys. I do understand it gives protection to them too, and I do not deny that at all. It is just that like the cynos, it favors larger groups more than smaller groups or solo players.

The suggestions I am bringing can be misread because these are complex issues. And as you point out, not all suggestions may be good, or hurt too much the little guys, and I am always ready to revisit my positions. For example I abandoned the idea I was pushing last year to force players to link all their alts via EULA change, to instead encourage players to link their alts by giving those that do so a minor economic advanatge. I still need to be able to express these ideas and discuss the, as unlike larger groups, the campaign and these forums are the main place I interact with the community, not having any corp or alliance forums and such and mostly playing solo.

Working to limit the influences of the power players that lead the larger groups is what I am all about. Understanding how to not screw the little guys too is why I bring up these discussions, knowing that I am not infaillible and need others little guys to speak out too.

Candidate for CSM XII

Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2017-01-28 23:00:10 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:

Working to limit the influences of the power players that lead the larger groups is what I am all about. Understanding how to not screw the little guys too is why I bring up these discussions, knowing that I am not infaillible and need others little guys to speak out too.



lol then spend some more time learning how small groups actually play and see how organization trumps numbers almost every time. the problem with putting restrictions on ppl be it cynos or forum posting is you will almost always hurt the little guy more than the big groups. There is nothing an organized small group can't do that a large organized group can't do easier. if you make something hard for a big group assume you have just made it near impossible for the small one.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2017-01-28 23:00:14 UTC
Zhilia has been my forum alt for 10 years. She has ~4500 posts. To my knowledge, a half dozen people connect my main to her, though I haven't made much effort to mask the link.

Forcing me to post with my main would obliterate that record. Is that really what you want?

Oh, I also use my market alt to post in sell orders. Because she handles my money. Why would I use this character for that? Why would I use my main, who is mostly broke, for that?

And besides, how would you determine my main? I know which one I consider "main" but the character I log on *most* often is actually an industrial guy on another account entirely.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-01-28 23:02:14 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

as some one who has been personally targeted in game because of things i have said on the forums -10000 people should be free to express their ideas no matter what they are even if they fear they may be targeted for those ideas. many of us don't feel we need to hid but some out there do and their ideas are no less valuable

/


As a side note, in your case, as none of your alts are well known, if this is truly the case, then you can post with any of your alts you choose. What I am pointinf out in this thread is people like Mittani, known FCs, Chribba, previous CSM members and other well known characters have to post under their known alt.

This is all I am saying.

Candidate for CSM XII

Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2017-01-28 23:06:11 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

as some one who has been personally targeted in game because of things i have said on the forums -10000 people should be free to express their ideas no matter what they are even if they fear they may be targeted for those ideas. many of us don't feel we need to hid but some out there do and their ideas are no less valuable

/


As a side note, in your case, as none of your alts are well known, if this is truly the case, then you can post with any of your alts you choose. What I am pointinf out in this thread is people like Mittani, known FCs, Chribba, previous CSM members and other well known characters have to post under their known alt.

This is all I am saying.



why is that?


what if say mittani came up with a great idea on how to fix a major issue in eve. however because he was forced to post as mittani everyone just Grr goonesed it into the ground. your ideas should stand or fall on their own merits not on the merits of the one posting it.

if you are worried about hidden motives don't... i mean have you seen the forums? we so much as think we might detect the wif of a hint that there may be some way this advantages some one or some group directly we tear it apart.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#11 - 2017-01-28 23:06:53 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Zhilia has been my forum alt for 10 years. She has ~4500 posts. To my knowledge, a half dozen people connect my main to her, though I haven't made much effort to mask the link.

Forcing me to post with my main would obliterate that record. Is that really what you want?

Oh, I also use my market alt to post in sell orders. Because she handles my money. Why would I use this character for that? Why would I use my main, who is mostly broke, for that?

And besides, how would you determine my main? I know which one I consider "main" but the character I log on *most* often is actually an industrial guy on another account entirely.


Obviously, there are things like that to consider, and it is not my intent to have players lose their posting history if that were to happen (strictly a CCP decision by thew ay, I am only making suggestiosn to trigger discussions based on anew requirement for CSM members which seems to imply that CCP has the means to identify such connections)

Let say you were Chribba, or DBRG or Grath Telkin, for example, I believe it should be known so that what you say can be taken in the light of what we know about them.
Anonymity always helps the powerful more than it helps the little guys.

Candidate for CSM XII

Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-01-28 23:19:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

if you are worried about hidden motives don't... i mean have you seen the forums? we so much as think we might detect the wif of a hint that there may be some way this advantages some one or some group directly we tear it apart.


Yes, I have seen the forums.

As a matter of fact my first posting was to talk about the issue of ESS placed in anomalies.

I never had posted before and I got the clear feeling ina few eeks around this discussion that Null sec groups were using their alt-influence to destroy any attempt to make the ESS do what they were supposed to do in the first place when unvelied by CCP, i.e. force the defenders to come defend them if they were attacked, in exchange for a minor increase of benefit from their local PVE activity.

Instead the Null sec carebears found an exploit to have them defended by rat NPCs and trigger the reward without risk via pods, which to this day is still the case as no CSM raised this issue (at last they did some lip service to the placement of ESS on top of citadels, which has been changed because it really was too much and nopt as defendable than the "creativity" of having rats defend your assets ).

There was nothing there that could be argumented here from a different play-style perspective, which led me to conclude than running for CSM was the only way to defend these ideas, as the "community" was not interested to hear about other play-styles needs here.

I also assumed that I was not the only solo or micro-corp lurker player and it could work. Obviously, it's been two years and it has not worked and still I do hope a little bit longer that it could. I am too much of an optimist, which is a bad character flaw.

Candidate for CSM XII

Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-01-28 23:20:13 UTC
but again a good idea is a good idea and a bad idea is a bad idea. no matter who it is that posts it. the only thing that knowing does is create bias that can stop good ideas or pass bad ideas. even CCP isn't immune to this ignoring good ideas just because it was brought up by a goon
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2017-01-28 23:24:15 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

if you are worried about hidden motives don't... i mean have you seen the forums? we so much as think we might detect the wif of a hint that there may be some way this advantages some one or some group directly we tear it apart.


Yes, I have seen the forums.

As a matter of fact my first posting was to talk about the issue of ESS placed in anomalies.

I never had posted before and I got the clear feeling ina few eeks around this discussion that Null sec groups were using their alt-influence to destroy any attempt to make the ESS do what they were supposed to do in the first place when unvelied by CCP, i.e. force the defenders to come defend them if they were attacked, in exchange for a minor increase of benefit from their local PVE activity.

Instead the Null sec carebears found an exploit to have them defended by rat NPCs and trigger the reward without risk via pods, which to this day is still the case as no CSM raised this issue (at last they did some lip service to the placement of ESS on top of citadels, which has been changed because it really was too much and nopt as defendable than the "creativity" of having rats defend your assets ).

There was nothing there that could be argumented here from a different play-style perspective, which led me to conclude than running for CSM was the only way to defend these ideas, as the "community" was not interested to hear about other play-styles needs here.

I also assumed that I was not the only solo or micro-corp lurker player and it could work. Obviously, it's been two years and it has not worked and still I do hope a little bit longer that it could. I am too much of an optimist, which is a bad character flaw.




.. but you are not the only one to have had that idea and i remember seeing it supported and torn down from both sides (i was in support) many against it made a valid argument about using your environment to your advantage and gave many suggestions how you can use this against a group
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#15 - 2017-01-28 23:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Borat Guereen wrote:
Understanding how to not screw the little guys too is why I bring up these discussions, knowing that I am not infaillible and need others little guys to speak out too.

I don't really want to turn this thread into a discussion of your CSM campaign, because this is about one specific idea that I think has disadvantages that far outweigh the advantages.

Hugh's point is spot on. People have been doxxed in the past because of posts they've made on mains in the forum. Alts provide a level of security that makes it easier/safer to post. That shouldn't be lost. His point about grrrr whatever is also a great justification for alts for some topics.

Same for Zhilia. That forum history and relevance of the character to the topic also favours the use of relevant alts.

However, just adding here because this is the current discussion, the issue isn't so much what agenda you have. Whatever floats your boat is fine. The issue seems to be a lack of willingness to actually consider alternative positions so far and see how ideas posted actually have flaws. So the quote above doesn't so far ring true for me from your other writing. It appears quite the opposite.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#16 - 2017-01-28 23:25:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but again a good idea is a good idea and a bad idea is a bad idea. no matter who it is that posts it. the only thing that knowing does is create bias that can stop good ideas or pass bad ideas. even CCP isn't immune to this ignoring good ideas just because it was brought up by a goon


I agree, and an idea need to be fine-tuned through discussions and debates, and looked at from different play-styles perspectives, which an open CSM campaign debate can bring.

Candidate for CSM XII

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#17 - 2017-01-28 23:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Borat Guereen wrote:
Anonymity always helps the powerful more than it helps the little guys.

What?

Based on what evidence or reasoning?
Van Doe
#18 - 2017-01-28 23:32:36 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Anonymity always helps the powerful more than it helps the little guys.

What?

Based on what evidence?

Based on the voting system in soviet Russia

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#19 - 2017-01-28 23:34:08 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Anonymity always helps the powerful more than it helps the little guys.

What?

Based on what evidence?

Based on the voting system in soviet Russia

Again what? That doesn't explain anything of relevance to the use of alts to post in a forum about EVE.

Why is that even relevant, even if there is some sort of unexplained logic there?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2017-01-28 23:37:39 UTC
I shiptoast with my main, why don't you? Pirate
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