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Which Marauder is best for L4 missions?
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#41 - 2017-01-26 23:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
Something doesn't make sense to me.

You're forgetting target painters and implants. I can't remember my fit offhand, but I have a rigor, a pair of precision-scripted missile T2 guidance computers, two Faction target painters and V skills.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#42 - 2017-01-27 02:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Takh Meir'noen
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
Something doesn't make sense to me.

You're forgetting target painters and implants. I can't remember my fit offhand, but I have a rigor, a pair of precision-scripted missile T2 guidance computers, two Faction target painters and V skills.


I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 | 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m | 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size?

FF - 19%
DD - 45%
CC - 74%
BC - 100%
BS - 100%

So by devoting 5 slots (4 MID + 1 RIG) you get up to that application. Seems like a big investment just to apply better to cruisers, when you could just shoot precision instead.

BTW even with GP-806 & TN-906 fitted I'm only showing 261m | 154 m/s with Fury. This is EFT-Fu, so of course it's all 5 skills. I still don't understand how you're reaching 240 | 180.

With FOUR t2MGC + All Vs + GP-806 & TN-906 implants I get 243m | 176m/s using Fury. So... yeah.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#43 - 2017-01-27 10:09:13 UTC
aldhura wrote:
If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility.
I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room.

I would like to point out that it will typically take you all of 2 seconds to triangulate roughly the area since the gate activation bubble is actually pretty big. This was a pretty big discussion when the MJD came out and the MJD bonus was given to Marauder.. years? ago. MJDs are typically the superior prop mod for Marauders for around half the available missions. Not opinion, but demonstrated fact. Just swap out the prop mod in station. Once you get used to using the MJD after an hour or so you'll understand. It just is what it is.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2017-01-27 15:26:41 UTC
double prob master race.
mjd and mwd ftw.

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#45 - 2017-01-27 15:49:10 UTC
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 | 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m | 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size?

You have to look at the whole damage equation, while you are correct that painters do not affect explosion radius or velocity they do affect sig radius. Faster, smaller explosions or larger targets really does not matter all that much they are both equally effective.

Applying damage and having enough damage to handle the BS / BC in missions is easy with a Golem and cruise you simply use T2 Fury ammo. Applying to smaller targets gets a bit more challenging so I go with this basic fit, not as good against the larger stuff, since I full clear it works better overall because it applies so well to the smaller stuff.
2 x T2 Rigors
4 x Faction BCS
2 x precision scripted T2 MGC
With a pilot that has all applicable skills to level 5 and no implants.
T2 fury - 948 dps, 166,556 range, 144.8 explosion velocity, 194.6 explosion radius.
T2 precision - 677 dps, 111,037 range, 207.43 explosion velocity, 101.9 explosion radius

There is a lot left on the table as it were because I do not use implants. My mission character flies so many different ships and I hate the hassles of constantly clone jumping for implants so I simply stopped using them. Besides that they never made more than a few minutes difference in an average mission and I simply do not care about those few minutes so why bother.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#46 - 2017-01-27 16:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Takh Meir'noen
Donnachadh wrote:
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 | 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m | 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size?

You have to look at the whole damage equation, while you are correct that painters do not affect explosion radius or velocity they do affect sig radius. Faster, smaller explosions or larger targets really does not matter all that much they are both equally effective.

Applying damage and having enough damage to handle the BS / BC in missions is easy with a Golem and cruise you simply use T2 Fury ammo. Applying to smaller targets gets a bit more challenging so I go with this basic fit, not as good against the larger stuff, since I full clear it works better overall because it applies so well to the smaller stuff.
2 x T2 Rigors
4 x Faction BCS
2 x precision scripted T2 MGC
With a pilot that has all applicable skills to level 5 and no implants.
T2 fury - 948 dps, 166,556 range, 144.8 explosion velocity, 194.6 explosion radius.
T2 precision - 677 dps, 111,037 range, 207.43 explosion velocity, 101.9 explosion radius

There is a lot left on the table as it were because I do not use implants. My mission character flies so many different ships and I hate the hassles of constantly clone jumping for implants so I simply stopped using them. Besides that they never made more than a few minutes difference in an average mission and I simply do not care about those few minutes so why bother.


I understand the purpose the target painters serve (I even showed their effect on application vs angels with your claimed fit), that's not what I'm disputing. To be blunt, I'm saying your numbers don't check out. As a reminder, you said your Fury is 240 | 180, to which I showed that even with V skills, best implants, 4x t2MGC w/ precision, and 2 t2 Rigors you STILL don't make it (though I'd call it 240 | 180 if you round it off). So your claim was false, when your speaking to the merits of your fit, you can't just make up numbers to support your ideas. At least not without someone (like me) calling it out.

[Golem, L4 Donnachadh]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


There is the fit you described, right out of Pyfa. All 5 skills, no implants, Nova Fury (as I'm looking at Angels, a Paladin's worst matchup), 2x t2 MGC (precision script), 2x faction painter, 4x faction BCS (but you said before you run 3 + rigor), and 2x t2 rigor. We're suddenly no longer claiming 240|180 anymore, now you're saying 195|145 (rounded). Yet when I put this into Pyfa:

Fury: 243 radius | 145 velocity | 908 DPS (you claim 195 radius)
Precision: 127 radius | 207 velocity | 648 DPS (you claim 102 radius)

So I'm trying to figure out why it's off. I understand that the application with 2 painters on this is going to be stellar. I really do. That doesn't change the fact that you are claiming explosion radius that doesn't match what Pyfa is kicking out, and DPS numbers that are too high. Wait. Nevermind I figured out the DPS, you aren't factoring reload time.

So the explosion radius is still off. I'd like to know if that's a problem with Pyfa, or your numbers. My buddy wants to use a Golem really bad and is training towards it--I'd like to be able to help him experiment with a solid fit, and I can't do that if Pyfa is wrong. Are you actually using implants you aren't mentioning? Are you using boosters? What gives?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#47 - 2017-01-27 17:06:46 UTC
Unless you're multi-boxing, missions are roughly going to take the same amount of time to clear - regardless of Marauder used. You can tweak your implants and fit to reduce travel time, increase DPS and improve damage application - but ultimately RNG is going to have as much of an impact as anything you do.

Some Marauders will excel in certain Empire space while others will be more effective against certain NPCs. The one thing that everyone can probably agree on is that Marauders are the most efficient way of clearing missions because you're using at least 25-50% less ammunition. Beyond that, it's really personal preference or bias that motivates us.

After a few thousand missions, most of you are going to find that full mission clearing, looting and salvaging with Marauders is boring as sin. It's fun to come back to occasionally but once you get to the point where you have V skills, +6 implants and have basically come within 0.1% of perfection - you're going to look for more exciting things to do in EVE. This typically entails more risk and thus the blitz/Burner method Anize has worked to perfect offers the most bang for your buck, a solid skill path and a way to pay for all the stuff you're going to eventually lose in EVE.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#48 - 2017-01-27 19:45:45 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
aldhura wrote:
If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility.
I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room.

I would like to point out that it will typically take you all of 2 seconds to triangulate roughly the area since the gate activation bubble is actually pretty big. This was a pretty big discussion when the MJD came out and the MJD bonus was given to Marauder.. years? ago. MJDs are typically the superior prop mod for Marauders for around half the available missions. Not opinion, but demonstrated fact. Just swap out the prop mod in station. Once you get used to using the MJD after an hour or so you'll understand. It just is what it is.


How long does it take you to get to a point in space/gate with an mjd if you are 56km away ?? try it and time it, then do the same with a 500mn mwd, and then come back and share which is the best option.
Also I am shooting while I move, you lose some damage application time.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#49 - 2017-01-28 07:13:59 UTC
The best option is both, and it's usually not a problem to fit both.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#50 - 2017-01-28 19:00:06 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The best option is both, and it's usually not a problem to fit both.



Soooo in other posts you go on about damage application, and here you pretty much say .. yea go ahead, wast a slot for a second prop mod and lose out out more better damage application as the slot could have been used for TP's, Tracking etc.. Ugh
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#51 - 2017-01-28 20:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
You do realize that Bastion is stacking penalized, yes? You don't necessarily gain enough damage application from one additional module than you would the ability to insantly jump 100km - especially where short range weapons are concerned.

Maraudres are typically over-tanked so there's nothing stopping you from running another damage application module in the lows or with rigs.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#52 - 2017-01-28 23:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I always thought the Golem was the best all-around Marauder, but after zipping around in a Vargur this afternoon I think I may have been wrong all this time. For starters, the Vargur has a better native shield resist profile (25-30-40-50) that lacks the distinct EM hole of the Golem. This means you can effectively over-tank it with just a single adaptive invulnerability. It also has an extra low slot which you can use to boost its mobility to well over 1250m/s - this also makes it the fastest and most maneuverable Marauder.

The Kronos and Paladin both get a damage bonus but the Vargur is the only Marauder with a rate of fire bonus (the Golem gets nothing) - which gives it not only the highest potential DPS but the fastest rate of fire. It's also the only other Marauder besides the Golem that doesn't require capacitor to fire weapons (this allows you to run a cap-stable fit for the most part). Aside from the Paladin, it also has the highest ammunition capacity with autocannons (120) which means you're never reloading.

Because of the inherent tracking bonus with the Vargur you really only need to run a pair of optimal range-scripted tracking computers (Bastion penalizes the third anyway). This leaves room for a sensor booster to quickly lock targets (with Barrage the Vargur can hit out to 113km!) The Vargur also has more drone bandwidth and capacity.

Interesting enough I ran the numbers and a standard 800mm Vargur actually outperforms both a Polarized Vargur and Polarized Machariel past 40km. For the slight increase in short-range DPS it's really not worth giving up the tank since most targets are going to fall into that 35-60km 'sweet' zone anyway.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endecroix
Doomheim
#53 - 2017-02-03 20:14:23 UTC
Paladin or Vargur depending on where you are space wise. Don't get me wrong I love the Golem but I feel it's not quite as good as the Vargur and the Paladin is supreme against certain NPCs. The Kronos is the poor relation.

With salvage being so bad with a few exceptions though I'd really be looking at a Mach and just blitzing through stuff. Marauders are more forgiving though if you can't give it your full attention eg multiboxing or real life intrusions.
Kaiden krios
Mangueireiros
#54 - 2017-02-04 01:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaiden krios
In my main account i have a Vargur, and in secondary i have a Kronos. In the past i had a Golem and a Paladin. All 4 marauders are excelents in their type of weapon with good bonus. In my opinion, Paladin is very good against all rats except Angels, and many missions are against them. Golem too but missiles are so boooooring (for me of corse).

My personal choise, Vargur, love it, Minmatar is in my blood lol. Like others said, the resists profiles, ACs dont use capacitor, good mobility and you can select damage type, and the range is very nice too. Kronos, not as good as Vargur, but is ok with Blaster and Null ammunition, and i love that sexy hull.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#55 - 2017-02-04 15:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
You're not wrong about the Golem - missile are boring as sin. What's particularly grating is the initial launch for cruise missiles, because they just hang there for several seconds after leaving the tubes and continuing on their merry way. You're often a good chunk into your next cycle before they're even on their way to the target...

Target painters are effective, but again - annoying as h*ll to be constantly clicking to apply. Between counting volleys and timing cycles, it ends up being a lot of micromanagement and somewhat unfulfilling for a ship which you should be having a riot in.

The Golem is the best at taking out battleships bar-none because it can hit for 100% damage application every time at any range. It sucks against frigates, though - so you either waste time switching to Precision ammunition or waiting for your wing of light drones to take them out (usually losing 1 or 2 in the process).

I have a love-hate relationship with missiles. I really want to fly the Golem - it just sucks the fun factor out of everything.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#56 - 2017-02-04 17:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
So the explosion radius is still off. I'd like to know if that's a problem with Pyfa, or your numbers. My buddy wants to use a Golem really bad and is training towards it--I'd like to be able to help him experiment with a solid fit, and I can't do that if Pyfa is wrong. Are you actually using implants you aren't mentioning? Are you using boosters? What gives?

Apologies for the delayed response, work issues limiting my time here.

I have no idea what the difference is. I just double checked between PYFA and EvEHQ and the numbers are off between the two but they are off by less than 1% we are considerably more than 1% off. I checked for updates to both programs and the most recent version of both is installed so I doubt that is it. If there is someone here that uses EFT could you run this fit and see what the numbers are. In the end other than talking points or simply for paper numbers it really does not matter if they match, you are on the front line so to speak and you are the one that will have to explain to your friend so go with what you have.

I never calculate reload times into numbers I post on a forum anywhere, there are to many variables at play. Calculating for a reload when the launchers / turrets are empty is no more accurate at predicting what you will actually achieve in any given circumstance than simply quoting the numbers without reload. I always found it better and less confusing to simply quote the numbers from the fit tool and allow those who read them to adjust based on their experiences and references.

The character that flies the Golem does have an "Inherent Implants 'Squire'Power Grid Management EG 603" implant because he needs that for a logi fit he flies as well, it is unlikely but I guess it is possible that is throwing off the numbers. Other than that simply the basic set of plus 4 attribute implants.

If your friend wants to fly a Golem the best fit will be what they like, not what you think they should fly. So my thoughts on that are to give them a wide range of possible fits, explain the advantages / disadvantages to all of them and let them decide which is right for them.
I like cruise, my son likes torps, mine is better against the small ships his is better against the big stuff.
A corp mate is paranoid about losing his Golem so he uses an MJD and works around the max range of the cruise missiles moving whenever anything gets to close for his comfort level.
A friend likes to get up close and personal in his Golem so he is heavy on tank because he does not like to be tied in place with the bastion, He is experimenting with heavy and hams at the moment to see if they work better than the torps he started with.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#57 - 2017-02-04 18:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
And some of us run the Kronos, which is probably the greatest Marauder out there... Roll
Well, you have to at least give points for the "Space Police" (whoop, whoop)...

The better question is: Which Marauder has the coolest SKIN? Golem Kaalakiota, Kronos Serpentis/Police and Paladin Cold Iron/Purity of the Throne are all arguably very slick. The Vargur SKINs really suck, however.

Oh, and the answer is still the Kronos.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lucian Skord
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2017-02-06 01:11:22 UTC
ive only played in vargur and golem, id say vargur for pve and golem pvp (if u dare )
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#59 - 2017-02-06 01:35:20 UTC
Lucian Skord wrote:
ive only played in vargur and golem, id say vargur for pve and golem pvp (if u dare )

I'd say Kronos if you like armor tanking.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Banksy Rotsuda
Doomheim
#60 - 2017-02-21 15:37:02 UTC
Does not matter anymore now that bastion is officially having all ewar immunity removed.

First was 95% effective but could not get it right and had to revert back to 100% on several tries.

Now the word is all ewar immunity will be removed from bastion so it will be just like any other ship in that regard.

I for one welcome our new Guristas permajam overlords...

CryCry