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Why do people seem to hate ECM in particular of all the Ewar types?
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Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2017-01-26 20:14:19 UTC
The racial ewar preferences are based around each faction: The Gallente can point very far, and they have bonused damps to counter that. The Minmatar have strong sig/speed tankers, so they get bonused Webs and painters. The Amarr have powerful energy turrets, so they get bonused Neutralizers and Tracking Disruptors. The caldari have strong, modern sensors (at least lore-wise - I'm not certain this is even still the case ingame) so them having jammers makes sense. It's just that jammers are kind of terrible in small scale engagements. I'm not saying they should not have them, I've been playing this game for long enough to be somewhat frustration-resistant by now. But I will complain about them every now and then to compensate. :D
LouHodo
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#22 - 2017-01-26 20:35:36 UTC
You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2017-01-26 20:36:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.



That's the implementation.

The concept is removing an enemy's ability to be effective by reducing the number of ships he can actually lock - that's fine in theory, but the way it's implemented is pure shite.


If you remove the all or nothing part of it and only make it reduce the number of lock, logi will suffer while all other role can just deal with it.

Part of the issue is, if you remove/change it, what do you replace it with since it's the only EWAR caldari has. Minmatar has web range and TP, Amarr has weapon disruption and neuts, Galente has point range and damp. Does the single EWAR vs double for all other race situation make it more acceptable for CCP? I'd be interested in hearing what they think about that.


I'm not sure how you'd handle it, to be honest, and still retain the uniqueness that doesn't make it feel like sensor damps 2.0

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-01-26 20:37:24 UTC
LouHodo wrote:
You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL.


Just be forewarned. You WILL be primaried.

EVERY.
SINGLE.
TIME.

And with good reason. Just expect to lose a lot of ships leaning to fly them.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-01-26 21:27:13 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
Because there is no counter-play.



Keep range, quickly set drones on em but most of all: fit against ECM.

There's no doubting that ECM tears are the very sweetest, most precious of all.

If people primary you for the ship you're flying, it's because you are dangerous, if they hate or bounty you for it, you're doing something perfectly right.




Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2017-01-26 22:09:24 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Keep range

like what? 80 kilometers? Then you could just as well be permajammed in most ships.

Quote:
quickly set drones on em

if you *have* drones, enough control range and can lock faster than a kitsune.

Quote:
but most of all: fit against ECM.

ECCM will decrease the chances of getting jammed, but once the jam hits - and it can still hit - you are still a brick in space. like others have said, other methods of electronic warfare don't brick you. Damps make you lock slower, or force you to come closer, or switch targets. Painters merely make you take more damage, tracking disruptors make you do less damage, but in all cases you can still do *something*.

Like I said before, ECM is a part of the game, and it works reasonably well in many situations. For some situations it's just broken, though, and there is indeed no counterplay.

Except - there's one: Bring your own jammer, and tell him to draw faster than the other guy. Doesn't work solo, and doesn't make a lot of sense for small gangs, but there's that.


Valkin Mordirc
#27 - 2017-01-26 22:35:02 UTC
As any sort of Ewar pilot you should expect to be primed. You are a force multiplier and you directly threaten the structure of a comp.

ECM is particular because in small gang fights, you are more effective than in large gang fights. ECM can shut down integral parts of a small gang comp because the small gang is relying more on single pilot to provide a role. As to compared to large gangs which have multiple ships all provided the same role.

Knocking out a single oneiros, in a gang of 7 pilots in more effective than knocking out a single guardian of a chain when the 50 man fleet has two separate chains in it's comp. Just like knocking out a single oracle to mitigate the gangs DPS out put in a small gang is more effective than knocking even 5 out in a gang of 50.

ECM also removes all chances of being useful during a fight. You get completely shut down during a fight, and have to sit and wait while a time runs out, all the time watching your HP get ticked away, or listening to your gang try to fight without you.

Yeah and you could technically fit for ECM, you can be prepared but since ECM is RNG, you can sit totally get jammed out.

A few years ago, my old corp went up against a drake fleet that had a scorpion for support, we knew that they would use one, we also knew that the scorpion would warp directly from his pos 80km out. So we fitted a ship to warp away from the fight and back onto the scorpion and fitted it with two ECCM mods, he would than hold it for secondary to MWD in. The pilot landed on the scorp tackled it, and due to RNGesus, the scorpion was able to land a jam cycle and warp away before secondary tackle was able to get into position. Saving the scorpion and keeping him in the battle.


Now the fight was fun, but I still remember hearing the frustrations that was brought on. RNG took away all our plans to kill a single ship, even though we planned and prepped accordingly for it, such as fitting a ship to handled ECCM, watching and reacting to how our enemy fought. It didn't matter Random Number Generation flipped us the bird.
#DeleteTheWeak
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#28 - 2017-01-26 23:40:33 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
because sitting watching yourself die because you cant lock anything is just aids, you be aswell just going afk if you are pointed and jammed.


I remember in one game they introduced quick time events to shake off stuns, just so the players could do _something_ about it. xD
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2017-01-27 00:31:06 UTC
Confirming ECM tears are ultimate.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Rogwar Toralen
AZLE FUN STUFF
#30 - 2017-01-27 02:43:14 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
LouHodo wrote:
You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL.


Just be forewarned. You WILL be primaried.

EVERY.
SINGLE.
TIME.

And with good reason. Just expect to lose a lot of ships leaning to fly them.



You will if you have poor jamming skills, not the right ship for the engagement and don't fly or fit it correctly. Granted you will still die at times just like any other ship when you make mistakes or just stuff happens. Properly flown and fitted ECM can be a nice force multiplier. Brawl with it along with the other ships and you often die. A good ECM pilot often operates sort of independent of the fleet actions.

I love flying ECM but hate having it done to me :)

And yes I lose ships but it's usually because I made a mistake, not because I got priimaried. Assume you will get primaried and act accordingly. Operate right on the edge or even outside of your optimal if needed.

You can also use ECM to disrupt your enemy FC's decision cycle without necessarily landing a lot of jams.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-01-27 02:55:42 UTC
ECM used to be a binary and with very few ways to counter. Either you get jammed or you don't. Once jammed, you can just twiddle your thumbs or double click space and etc that needs no target to live a little longer.

As such, I believe that the implementation of the falloff mechanic for E-war was a step towards the right direction. Go further away from the ECM, much higher chance of ECM failing, so you can kill the jammer's mates from there.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#32 - 2017-01-27 04:22:42 UTC
Lulu Lunette wrote:
ECM is one of those things that makes total sense in large fleet fights, a lot like the old links did.


err, nope.

effective ECM pretty much requires the use of a hull with ECM bonuses. all the ECM hulls share one common trait: they're paper thin. ECM is generally best used in small-gang situations where the total effective alpha on field is manageable.

In big fleet engagements, Damps or Tracking disruptors are far more useful than ECM. many fleet Machariel fits utilise utility damps or TDs. ECM boats in large fleet engagements, being high on everyone's list of favourite primary targets, simply get volleyed clean off the field the minute they show themselves.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2017-01-27 04:38:50 UTC
pod yourself op

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#34 - 2017-01-27 05:35:14 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
because sitting watching yourself die because you cant lock anything is just aids, you be aswell just going afk if you are pointed and jammed.

edit: you be aswell just going afk if a griffin is on field



Pretty much this and answers like it. ECM has a binary result: either it fails, or it works. And when it works, it really works.


Thus many have found themselves jammed and scrammed. Since the KM and potential loot is worth more than a bounty (or people don't really play "pirate" any more) the outcome is predictable.

Were it up to me™ I would let ships fire in "dumb mode". That is, instead of turrets pointing at targets and missiles homing, you just fire into the direction you are pointing. This would be better than nothing. I would also add a drone prioritization option so the players can program their drones against which kind of attack to focus on.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#35 - 2017-01-27 08:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reinhardt Kreiss
Because people don't want to have to think about a counter that doesn't improve their dps or EHP. They're happy to fit sensor boosters to whore on a kill better but they'd never think of fitting ECCM, nor do smaller groups think about bringing another counter (HML Cerb or Caracal for instance) because they're too cool for that.

It's no different from people whining about being killed in high sec, we tell them "why don't you adapt then, it's not difficult" and laugh at those people.

CCP changed it so any idiot could do it right now (just as they made it easy for miners to fit tank, but they still don't) and made it a sebo script and people STILL whine (just like the clueless miners, I might add).
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#36 - 2017-01-27 08:35:34 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#37 - 2017-01-27 08:48:05 UTC
And shouldn't be listened to.
Gulboy
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#38 - 2017-01-27 09:19:31 UTC
I think the hate about the ECM comes from the fact that it's random, and the fact that it stops all your offensive modules (scram, point, web, etc... included) so that the target can warp off/pull range/regain cap.
It just stops a whole lot of things you can do to shut down others, by random chance.

All other ewars have counter options, as was stated in this discussion. ECM's counter is still chance based, which is the problem imo.

To explain the hatred, I'll tell a small story:
We were doing a lowsec roam in cruisers and had 3 augurors as support. We engaged a t3d/frigate fleet at a gate. The primary was one of our augurors, and he was holding out barely with overloaded reps from the remaining 2 logis.
Then I got jammed from their kitsune. I had 2 sensor boosters active (be sure to overload them when the fight starts everyone), the module that supposedly counters the ecm. It just didn't work as per random chance. Bad roll of the dice.
The primaried auguror fell down, but our dps had killed about 3 of their ships, so that we could tank their damage now. They disengaged a bit after I got unjammed.

Now, what makes the ECM hated by a lot of people?
It's the fact that if I didn't get jammed, we wouldn't have lost a single ship in that scenario. The hatred comes from the fact that I can make up this scenario in my head easily.

Most of the time, you can't really blame the ewar, since it's constant. ECM is not constant. You can't really make a scenario of the fight where the enemy ewar (paint, web, scram, neut, damp, track disruption) from not working magically. You make scenarios that involve outplaying those ewar effects.
You can't really outplay ECM.
Qwerty Ernaga
Doomheim
#39 - 2017-01-27 11:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Qwerty Ernaga
People always dislike (complain about) loss of control, be it here, in WoW (CC) or any other MMO.

BUTTONS I MASH, BUTTONS NOTHING DO!!! I DEAD?!? ROOOOAAAAAAR.
Toxin Nostromo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2017-01-27 11:11:22 UTC
Short version is, ECM is a like a Cop, Parent, Wife, In-law. You’re having fun, all of a sudden show stopper, no fun to be had.

The other recons you can at least participate, ECM you can’t. You take the time and expense to bring a fight to partake in PVP, then you can’t. People are angry because even if it’s 5v1 you still brought ECM. Enough experiences like that and you won’t bother any more.

Most people when roaming take a glance at the kill board, they see ECM in their gang fights, nope. Take a look a ship kills in the last hour, ooo three ships! I’m in a battlecruiser let’s see, 2 cruisers and a falcon, Nope. If it were three cruisers I may have gone down there, now I won’t, I set you to orange so moving forward I know not to engage. Then people complain they can’t find fights.

See my Eve Youtube Channel here! Toxin Nostromo Eve Youtube Channel