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Which Marauder is best for L4 missions?
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Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#21 - 2017-01-24 21:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Takh Meir'noen
I find all the Marauders are pretty much equal. The Paladin kicks out fantastic EM/TH damage with tachyons, but you'll lose some of that on Angel/Guristas/Serpentis. The Kronos is rocking a little less TH/KN with rails, but that damage applies better. The Golem and Vargur do less than the Kronos with Arty/Cruise, but they can pick their damage type. All in all I find it's pretty much a wash--pick the one you enjoy looking at the most and run with it.

(I don't run close range weapons on mission ships--I enjoy being able to frag anything I like from the cheap seats, especially with an MJD.)

The blitz guide for Pirate Invasion is to MJD/MWD over to group 5 and kill it. I just land in the pocket and kill them, warp out. No need to mess around with... yuk... *moving*. :)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#22 - 2017-01-25 13:55:07 UTC
Overall (regardless of Empire space), the Golem wins hands down as it is able to apply 100% native damage to any NPC. This is something none of the other Marauders can match.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sentenced 1989
#23 - 2017-01-25 17:26:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Overall (regardless of Empire space), the Golem wins hands down as it is able to apply 100% native damage to any NPC. This is something none of the other Marauders can match.


That is incorrect. The Golem is able to apply 100% native damage to any Battleship NPC, when it comes to smaller things, it is sh**. Like mentioned before, max skilled toon with Vargur can take 2-4 frigates down every 4 seconds (autocannons) if the frigate is at 22-45km range. Golem can not do that. with golem you can take 1 frigate down every 6-12 seconds (cruise).

Depending on missions, that thing plays a lot of role. I tested missile ships quite a lot of times and always was dissapointed, unless you need to kill one enemy at 80km range to complete mission.

And I also wrote log parsers for EVE logs so I can analyze damage outputs and other statistics, as well as tested with T2 fits, Faction fits, noob toons and maxed out toons.

Golem is by far safest and easiest way to run missions, but then again it is slowest if you go for full clean (it is contested for being slowest by Paladin when facing Angels)

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#24 - 2017-01-25 18:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
That is incorrect. The Golem is able to apply 100% native damage to any Battleship NPC, when it comes to smaller things, it is sh**. Like mentioned before, max skilled toon with Vargur can take 2-4 frigates down every 4 seconds (autocannons) if the frigate is at 22-45km range. Golem can not do that. with golem you can take 1 frigate down every 6-12 seconds (cruise).

Depending on missions, that thing plays a lot of role. I tested missile ships quite a lot of times and always was dissapointed, unless you need to kill one enemy at 80km range to complete mission.

And I also wrote log parsers for EVE logs so I can analyze damage outputs and other statistics, as well as tested with T2 fits, Faction fits, noob toons and maxed out toons.

Golem is by far safest and easiest way to run missions, but then again it is slowest if you go for full clean (it is contested for being slowest by Paladin when facing Angels)

I think you misunderstood. The Golem can apply 100% of the strongest native damage type to any NPC. None of the other Marauders can achieve 100% EM, thermal, kinetic or explosive damage - and will lose 5-60% of stated DPS depending on NPC type. For that reason it will always achieve 100% of stated DPS before damage application.

As for damage application, yes - the Golem is capable of applying 100% damage to structures, turrets, battleships, battlecruisers, destroyers, most cruisers and some frigates. For the pesky Elite cruisers, frigates and drones - a quick switch to Precision ammunition generally takes care of these in a volley or two.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Enduros
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2017-01-26 12:13:37 UTC
Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#26 - 2017-01-26 12:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Enduros wrote:
Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room...

Because some players like to do things the hard way and not equip propulsion modules... Micro Jump Drives truly shine on Marauders.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sentenced 1989
#27 - 2017-01-26 13:19:43 UTC
Enduros wrote:
Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room...


Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode.

Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#28 - 2017-01-26 13:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode.

Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD

If you're running short-range weapons a MJD and MWD are basically a must. Otherwise you will lose a lot of potential DPS to being out-ranged by NPCs. An extra optimal range-scripted tracking computer won't solve that. If you have a myriad of targets a sensor booster isn't really going to help in the long-run, either. At best, it saves you a volley or two at the outset.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#29 - 2017-01-26 15:05:14 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Because full clear is an inferior way to run missions and either the Mach or the Barghest is faster.

Missed this one earlier.
This is just a flat out lie. Full clear may be "inferior" to you but that does not mean that it is an "inferior" way to run missions for everyone in the game and I present myself as a perfect example of this. I am in my mid 60's and manage a business with 18 employees that does 5 million a year in gross sales. I can easily afford to buy and sell several trillion ISK worth of plex a month and I could do that every month if I want / need to. Standings are not an issue either, I already have accounts full of characters that have the standings needed to do what I want, and if I ever find something I need I can always pay (in cash) for more accounts and simply buy the characters from the character bazaar that have the skills / standings needed.

With all of these normal reasons why people blitz missions accounted for and in fact not relevant to me how efficient I am at running missions is not relevant.
Yes sometimes I do blitz.

There are also times when I will spend several hours on a single mission charting what the NPC do or how they respond to a specific set of circumstances.

Being free of the "requirement" to make ISK I am free to explore missions from another angle, often trying many fits that are significantly less than optimal simply to see how they respond to a specific mission.

Then there is the whole crazy notion of using missions as a way to help relieve the stress from a difficult day at work. For me nothing in EvE is better at that than hopping into the no prop mod / no mjd ultra short ranged blaster fit Kronos and just go all smashy face on stuff. Yep inefficient as hell and my missions character has lost more than a few multi billion ISK ships as a result but you know what, I simply do not care it was what I wanted to do at the time and I had fun doing it.

And then there is always the single best reason to full clear and loot / salvage. A lot of new players I work with will not accept ships / ammo / ISK etc when offered they want to do it themselves. Offer them the chance to help with the loot / salvage aspect of missions and they usually accept because you are not "giving" them something, they are "earning" it by helping you with your missions.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#30 - 2017-01-26 17:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Takh Meir'noen
Quote:
I think you misunderstood. The Golem can apply 100% of the strongest native damage type to any NPC. None of the other Marauders can achieve 100% EM, thermal, kinetic or explosive damage - and will lose 5-60% of stated DPS depending on NPC type. For that reason it will always achieve 100% of stated DPS before damage application.

As for damage application, yes - the Golem is capable of applying 100% damage to structures, turrets, battleships, battlecruisers, destroyers, most cruisers and some frigates. For the pesky Elite cruisers, frigates and drones - a quick switch to Precision ammunition generally takes care of these in a volley or two.


Is 100% damage type application that important? I mean I think it's a good thing, but I don't know that it's as important as you are making out. Let's look at the numbers:

Golem, 4x t2 Cruise w/ Navy Ammo + 4x t2 BCS = 745 DPS
Paladin, 4x t2 Tachyon w/ Navy Multi + 4x t2 HS = 979 DPS

So first let's look at the Paladins "weak spots". Guristas, Serpentis, and Angels:

Against Guristas average resist profile, the Golem will kick out 514 DPS. Our lowly Paladin will only do 494. Well... that's not as severe of a difference as I would expect from your description. But after all the Golem does 3/4 of the Paladins raw DPS--so while it's shooting a stronger resist it's hitting it harder.

But everyone knows Angels are the Paladin's worst matchup. In this case the Golem kicks out an average of 507 DPS, while the Paladin drags along at 446 DPS. Yup, the Golem does more damage against those pesky Angels. I wouldn't call that an insurmountable gulf, but it's definitely more damage.

Serpentis? Golem 462 / Paladin 544. Oops.

Drones? Golem 432 / Paladin 568. Awkward.

Sansha/Blood? Golem 514 / Paladin 643. Yeah.

So yes, a Golem can kill Angels & Guristas a little faster. A Paladin can kill everything else faster. And with an MJD, everything is within the 56k optimal (86k w/ falloff) of the tachyons. I'm killing 4 frigs at a time, 2 cruisers at a time, or working on 1 BS at a time. If stuff gets close enough that I care about tracking, MJD through them and I'm back @ 70-80k away, popping them.

Again, I usually just full clear and loot/salvage anyway, so I don't even *use* my MJD most of the time. I have Hobgoblin IIs to kill annoying frigates/destroyers (even cruisers sometimes).

Why do I use Hobgoblins, even against Blood/Sansha? Same principle as Paladin vs Golem--a Hobgoblin is attacking a stronger resist than the Acolyte, but does so much more damage it ends up being the same DPS. Versus Angels/Guristas/Serpentis, when Hornets are better, the Hobgoblin is still just barely behind them in output. Yes, Hornets do the same damage to Angels as Warriors, because they do more raw damage to a stronger resist.

So actually I carry 5 hobgoblins, 5 hornets, and 5 salvage drones. I usually have salvage drones out, plugging away at the pile of wrecks around my MTU, while I kill everything, and occasionally switch to light drones if a frigate gets under my guns before I pop it. The choice is even simple: Can my drones kill off the little stuff that's too close to hit faster than I can MJD away and back to my MTU. If the answer is yes, I use drones instead of MJD.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#31 - 2017-01-26 19:36:36 UTC
Most players who run Golems utilize Fury ammunition, so your DPS numbers are off. So yes, a Golem will definately outperform a Paladin by a considerable margin against Serpentis, Guristas and Angels. As it can hit out past 125km without effort there are a few missions where it will also excel against Sansha, Blood and Drones as well. Against Mercenaries it's probably a toss-up as tachyons aren't great below a certain range and pulse with Scorch primarily puts out EM.

Drones are kind of a moot point since both the Paladin and Golem can field the same number of light drones. The Paladin certainly has more cargo space for salvaging as crystals literally take up nothing. You can also have a wide range of crystals to instantly adjust to range, so there's also that advantage. Lead time with cruise and counting volleys definately sucks on the Golem, and you need an insane amount of application to deal decent damage to frigates (switching to Precision helps).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#32 - 2017-01-26 20:31:26 UTC
Fury:
Angel - 617
Blood - 626
Guristas - 626
Drones - 526
Sansha - 626
Serpentis - 563

With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose.

The point of my examination was not to say "a Paladin is the best marauder". The point was to show that the Golem is not the best. None of them are. Except for outlier comparisons they end up being about the same--close enough that without doing the math there's no real difference. Yes, a Golem can use painters and rigs to improve their application on smaller ships. A Paladin can use an MJD to remove tracking from any application equation. Killing ships at 125k is mostly useless with MWDs and MJDs. A rail-kronos does less DPS than a tach-Paladin but TH/KN is typically a better damage mix. Vargur/Golem do the least, but can switch the the best damage type.

It's all a wash, typically.

A pulse Paladin has very little improvement over tachs since there's no Tachyon-Pulse. A blaster Kronos does STUPID dps at silly close range. It all balances out really.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#33 - 2017-01-26 20:35:42 UTC
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose.

Before application... With application it's around 240/180, so even cruisers get clipped for full damage. Only frigates escape complete destruction.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#34 - 2017-01-26 21:36:01 UTC
Woah. How many rigs/modules are you devoting to pull that off? LOL
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#35 - 2017-01-26 21:46:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode.

Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD

If you're running short-range weapons a MJD and MWD are basically a must. Otherwise you will lose a lot of potential DPS to being out-ranged by NPCs. An extra optimal range-scripted tracking computer won't solve that. If you have a myriad of targets a sensor booster isn't really going to help in the long-run, either. At best, it saves you a volley or two at the outset.


If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility.
I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#36 - 2017-01-26 22:23:51 UTC
I run an MWD & MJD on my Paladin. The MWD is because I like pushing 1 km/s between gates. The MJD isn't a waste of utility--it is my utility.

Most of the time I land in a pocket and pop everything before it can get close enough for tracking to be an issue. But if tracking ever is an issue, just MJD, and it's no longer an issue. I can hit a ship with 0 transversal @ 86k with multis. When there's pockets with a bunch of stuff that starts on top of you, I drop an MTU, MJD away, kill it all, and MJD back.
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#37 - 2017-01-26 22:24:57 UTC
As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have.

On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times.

Other people have said, and I agree, golem is the most consistent of the marauders, but I find the three turret marauders will normally clear missions quicker, which is my preferred metric for both full clear and blitzing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#38 - 2017-01-26 22:47:29 UTC
The Bigpuns wrote:
As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have.

On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times.

I rarely find I need the fourth damage module as you get more from three damage modules and a T2 rig. But you're right about the inertial stabilizers - they really cut down on travel and gate transit time.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#39 - 2017-01-26 22:50:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Takh Meir'noen wrote:
With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose.

Before application... With application it's around 240/180, so even cruisers get clipped for full damage. Only frigates escape complete destruction.


angel frigates are ~35 sig w/ ~550 speed (275 orbit)
angel destroyers are ~80 sig w/ 500 speed (250 orbit)
angel cruisers are ~125 sig w/ 450 speed (225 orbit)
angel battlecruisers are ~230 sig w/ 400 speed (200 orbit)
angel battleships are ~350 sig w/ 350 speed (175 orbit)

So if you were at 240/180 (seriously how many modules/rigs does that take) that's 11% application to frigs, 27% to destroyers, 45% to cruisers, 87% to battlecruisers, and 100% to battleships. A target painter helps out (18% FF/41% DD/69% CC/100% BC), but that's *another* slot devoted to making Fury missiles apply to small targets. I'd run a Golem with 4 cruise, 4 bcs, 1 painter, and a load of precision/fury/faction cruise missiles.

Again, I'm not saying the Golem is bad--I'm just saying it's not a stand-out winner among Marauders.
Takh Meir'noen
24th Imperial Recon
#40 - 2017-01-26 23:00:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The Bigpuns wrote:
As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have.

On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times.

I rarely find I need the fourth damage module as you get more from three damage modules and a T2 rig. But you're right about the inertial stabilizers - they really cut down on travel and gate transit time.


Something doesn't make sense to me. You said you have 240/180 with Fury Missiles. You also have 3 damage mods + a T2 damage rig. That means using MIDs, 1 LO, and 1 RIG (t1 rig at that) you are getting to 240/180.

If I run a T1 rigor + 4x t2 Missile Guidance w/ Precision script I get to 258 | 166.

Could you maybe just share your Golem fit? I think I'm just not good enough with the math to figure this out on my own.