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"Nerfing the drake will make the nighthawk more attractive"
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CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#1 - 2012-01-20 11:54:25 UTC
I have never heard of such a stupid statement . Especially since the drake now has greater dps to ALL damage types due to its new rof bonus. Not to mention the range bonus makes it viable for hams, which the nighthawk can't do.

The nighthawk is still lacking, the ship itself needs to be looked at, not the drake.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2012-01-20 11:59:52 UTC
…which is why they're not nerfing the Drake — they're focusing it on a particular purpose, leaving the NH open to serve a completely different purpose, rather than, as it does now, doing the exact same thing only not much better.

The Drake needs to be look at for a number of reasons, and buffing it is a neat way of doing so — opening up a possible niche for the NH is just a potential bonus.
CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#3 - 2012-01-20 12:14:26 UTC
The nighthawk is still only a tiny bit better than the drake, when using kinetic. It's dps otherwise is inferior. It has one less midslot and it's powergrid is a bit small.

It can tank a bit better and slightly better at hitting frigs for the extra skill and cost
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#4 - 2012-01-20 14:14:33 UTC
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
The nighthawk is still only a tiny bit better than the drake, when using kinetic. It's dps otherwise is inferior. It has one less midslot and it's powergrid is a bit small.

It can tank a bit better and slightly better at hitting frigs for the extra skill and cost

Well, that's the problem, and buffing it now would just make it overpowered, like the Drake already is (considering its cost). The problem is not that the Nighthawk is bad, the problem is the Drake is too good.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-20 14:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
The Nighthawk already is more attractive...I have been flying it over the Drake for years. Granted it normally costs 3-4 times as much but it is worth it.

It has way more DPS...and a MUCH better tank. You just don't know how to fit one properly.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-01-20 14:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Drall
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
It has way more DPS...

Let's not exaggerate. A little more DPS and still a horrible low PG.
stoicfaux
#7 - 2012-01-20 14:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
The Nighthawk already is more attractive...I have been flying it over the Drake for years. Granted it normally costs 3-4 times as much but it is worth it.

It has way more DPS...and a MUCH better tank. You just don't know how to fit one properly.

Enjoy the DPS advantage while it lasts. Currently:
* NH: (6 launchers * 1.25 kin bonus) / .75 rof bonus = 10 effective launchers
* NH: (6 launchers) / .75 rof bonus = 7.5 effective launchers with non-Kinetic ammo
* Drake: (7 launchers * 1.25 kin bonus) = 8.75 effective launchers
* Drake: (7 launchers) = 7 effective launchers with non-Kinetic ammo

Proposed Drake RoF change:
* Drake 7 launchers / .75 rof bonus = 9.33 effective launchers regardless of ammo type

Before: NH has 14% more raw DPS with kinetic, and 7% more DPS with non-kinetic.
After: NH has 7% more raw DPS when comparing kinetic missiles. NH is down by 6% raw DPS for non-kinetic ammo.

edit: Also, Tengu.
* Tengu: (6 launchers * 1.25 kin bonus) / 0.625 rof bonus = 12 effective launchers
* Tengu: (6 launchers) / 0.625 rof bonus = 9.6 effective launchers with non-kinetic ammo

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#8 - 2012-01-20 14:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
There are 3+ components in this problem:

- drake is indeed way too good regardless of whether NH is or is not lacking
- in current CS's balance NH lacks mostly grid
- CS's are lacking in general and are in dire need of boost - so NH needs to be boosted kinda twice

- armour vs. shield tanking needs to be addressed ASAP otherwise Sleip and new NH will become MUCH better than abso and astarte at virtually everything (damage projection, tanking, tackling, kiting)

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Michael Banki
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-01-20 15:41:25 UTC
Proposed changes will be a buff, from a 25% bonus to KINETIC damage to 25% bonus to ROF, wich makes is a 33% bonus to DPS in ALL damage types. And bonus to range, hmm, HAM drake. Anyway, it would be even better for ratting, who cares about 25% less EHP.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#10 - 2012-01-20 15:49:21 UTC
except that the nighthawk has 2 fewer slots(1 mid, 1 rig) and costs like 8 times as much for pve performance that is only marginally better than a drake.

Nighthawk and all field commands except the Sleipnir need the addition of 1 more slot...
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#11 - 2012-01-20 16:11:43 UTC
Michael Banki wrote:
Proposed changes will be a buff, from a 25% bonus to KINETIC damage to 25% bonus to ROF, wich makes is a 33% bonus to DPS in ALL damage types. And bonus to range, hmm, HAM drake. Anyway, it would be even better for ratting, who cares about 25% less EHP.


This, seriously. I just bought my first Drake last night since all the fuss made me curious, maybe I'll use it in WH's I dunno. But I digress, this thing has way more tank than it needs!

This is not a nerf, Drake fans should be delighted.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#12 - 2012-01-20 16:27:21 UTC
I actually like the proposed Drake change. It will be mini CNR with heavies and even better ship than it is currently. Granted, I prefer "gank" in general. Dead things dont need to be tanked.

I will be a bit harder for a 3 mil SP character to do Lev 4 missions in one but it shall be still a possibility. Just somewhat smaller margin for errors.

As far as Drake vs Nighthawk goes - I might actually switch using Drakes over Nighthawks for PvE. Only reason to use Nighthawk for me is a bit higher dps they can do atm. With high enough SP the tanking is not an issue in the regular PvE.

In PvP it will be a bit easier to bomb drake blob into oblivion if they group tight togehter and I still expect to see them in the future at least when shooting structures is on the agenda and the distance one has to travel is more than 4 jumps.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#13 - 2012-01-20 16:58:36 UTC
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
I have never heard of such a stupid statement . Especially since the drake now has greater dps to ALL damage types due to its new rof bonus. Not to mention the range bonus makes it viable for hams, which the nighthawk can't do.

The nighthawk is still lacking, the ship itself needs to be looked at, not the drake.

This. Fixing the Nighthawk is a relatively simple matter though. It just needs greater native shield resists (maybe a bit more speed too?). It should be able to out-tank a Drake by a healthy margin. Otherwise, it's just an expensive Drake w/ a warfare link.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#14 - 2012-01-20 17:25:32 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
The Nighthawk already is more attractive...I have been flying it over the Drake for years. Granted it normally costs 3-4 times as much but it is worth it.

It has way more DPS...and a MUCH better tank. You just don't know how to fit one properly.


That's the joke on us all.
Everyone knows how to fit a Drake, Nerf it.
Everyone knew how to nano a Dramiel, nerf it.
Everyone figured out a method of getting in a Super Carrier, nerf it.

Pick 500 nerfs, it's the same pattern. Some will adapt and figure out what the new one trick will be for the Drake Pony, most won't. Not because they are idjuts but because the one trick won't be what they wanted. Players keep looking for tank, CCP keep puking out dps.

I could also argue and have, you can beat the best Drake fit out there If you know how to fit.

Nerf it anyway, CCP. Kill it's tank, make another glass cannon. We need more of those.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#15 - 2012-01-20 17:39:45 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
The Nighthawk already is more attractive...I have been flying it over the Drake for years. Granted it normally costs 3-4 times as much but it is worth it.

It has way more DPS...and a MUCH better tank. You just don't know how to fit one properly.


That's the joke on us all.
Everyone knows how to fit a Drake, Nerf it.
Everyone knew how to nano a Dramiel, nerf it.
Everyone figured out a method of getting in a Super Carrier, nerf it.

Pick 500 nerfs, it's the same pattern. Some will adapt and figure out what the new one trick will be for the Drake Pony, most won't. Not because they are idjuts but because the one trick won't be what they wanted. Players keep looking for tank, CCP keep puking out dps.

I could also argue and have, you can beat the best Drake fit out there If you know how to fit.

Nerf it anyway, CCP. Kill it's tank, make another glass cannon. We need more of those.


I don't think that's a fair comparison. Dramiels were very fast and had very low mass. They were on the edge specs-wise. A monkey could fit a Supercarrier and it would still be the same... that was the problem there. The Drake has a lot of versatility and does a lot of things well, but it's not #1 at anything really. A good Hurricane pilot could cut a drake apart if he knew how the drake was fit. Passive tank drake isn't always best drake. It depends on what you are doing. If you really want to kill a Drake 1v1 get a grav jammer. 9/10 times the typical drake pilot hasn't fit grav boosters. I have a lot of fits for drakes... particularly solo low sec pirating. Depending on what you are doing different things make sense... and when I gate camp in them I'll tell you right now my tank is a lot weaker than it might otherwise be. Actually a lot of times I'm on the fence about whether I want to fit a third warp disruptor or a MWD or afterburner... shield mods in these roams aren't even on the table. People sometimes bug out just because they assume I have a passive tank, not realizing they could easily take me. The Drake isn't really over powered offensively, it just has the capacity for a decent tank. meh... that's just my humble opinion. I've not been in blobbing gangs in a long time so maybe there's a problem when you are dealing with a fleet of passive Drakes but solo the Drake is a fine ship but not the real ultimate power.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-01-20 18:24:10 UTC
Michael Banki wrote:
Proposed changes will be a buff, from a 25% bonus to KINETIC damage to 25% bonus to ROF, wich makes is a 33% bonus to DPS in ALL damage types. And bonus to range, hmm, HAM drake. Anyway, it would be even better for ratting, who cares about 25% less EHP.

I keep seeing this math fail.

DPS != Raw damage
DPS only becomes valid the longer engagements last.

If it takes 2 vollies now to destroy a target vs 3 post nerf, that extra volley
voids the RoF boost.

The calculations on RoF vs +Kinetic are not as black and white as some people
seem to think.

However, as much as I hate nerfing one thing to make another look better,
(kinda like having a fat friend so you look thinner), I think this new Drake will
maybe be a bit more fun to fly.
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-20 18:26:24 UTC
I forgot.

The Nighthawk definately needs a boost. One more rig slot jumps to mind for sure.
nate555
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-01-20 18:30:20 UTC
Just buy a raven
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#19 - 2012-01-20 18:31:57 UTC
Soulpirate wrote:
I forgot.

The Nighthawk definately needs a boost. One more rig slot jumps to mind for sure.


why t3 have 3 rigs slots and t2 have 2 is beyond me....

I highly doubt we will see any changes to the total number of rigs per t2 ships however the addition of another mid slot and a bit more pg would make the Nighthawk very attractive. I'd also like to see the kinetic dmg bonus swapped for a raw dmg bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles.
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-20 19:48:14 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Soulpirate wrote:
I forgot.

The Nighthawk definately needs a boost. One more rig slot jumps to mind for sure.


why t3 have 3 rigs slots and t2 have 2 is beyond me....

T1 BC's have 3 rigs.
T2 BC's have 2 rigs.

You would think it would be the other way around.Sad
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