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Maximum citadels in a system?
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Deckel
Island Paradise
#21 - 2017-01-22 01:48:54 UTC
While we're on the subject, there should probably be a method for a third party to alter the vulnerability window of a structure. If you really want/need to get rid of the competition and the vulnerability window is no good for most or your corp members then you are pretty much out of luck.

Hack the station during a vulnerability window to alter the time of day for when the next one is to occur, and can't be reset until the next one?
-Naturally if this is caught before the end of the current vulnerability window, then likely it can be be changed back, with either another hack or owner/corp permissions
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2017-01-22 05:49:32 UTC
Deckel wrote:
While we're on the subject, there should probably be a method for a third party to alter the vulnerability window of a structure. If you really want/need to get rid of the competition and the vulnerability window is no good for most or your corp members then you are pretty much out of luck.

Hack the station during a vulnerability window to alter the time of day for when the next one is to occur, and can't be reset until the next one?
-Naturally if this is caught before the end of the current vulnerability window, then likely it can be be changed back, with either another hack or owner/corp permissions

Or just hire Mercs rather than require someone with full access to always babysit their structure rather than just having gunners + potential defence fleet around.
Salvos Rhoska
#23 - 2017-01-22 07:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Ptraci wrote:
So if there are too many and you find it cluttered, (war dec them if high sec and) kill them.


Why bother. Thanks to the magic of Asset Safety, there is no loot or profit in it.

Alternatively, if they change that 6months from now. or implement upkeep/degradation, HS will be full of (probably largely afk or defense incapable corp) Citadel Loot Pinatas ripe for the harvest.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#24 - 2017-01-22 09:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
So if there are too many and you find it cluttered, (war dec them if high sec and) kill them.


Why bother. Thanks to the magic of Asset Safety, there is no loot or profit in it.

Alternatively, if they change that 6months from now. or implement upkeep/degradation, HS will be full of (probably largely afk or defense incapable corp) Citadel Loot Pinatas ripe for the harvest.


Ralph said that they would go after any put up in Romi, it does not really matter if you get loot or not, and in any case they are damn easy to kill in hisec.

One issue is the Raitaru, due to the rigs I would have to have three in space to cover the industry functions, so if CCP adjusted that, this would reduce the number needed. Another aspect is the unanchor and scoop mechanics, I know someone who has picked up eight citadels because of the week long unanchor process. Of course I would not bother moving them based on this, so CCP needs to adjust that so I can pick up the citadel and move it to a new location as needed without just giving it away.

There are a number of reasons why these things will blot out the overview, but putting artificial limits on them is not going to work.

I looked at the loot that came from some of the ones lost in Perimeter, 1bn on one, 2.5bn on another, 1.62bn on another all were fully fitted Fortizars.

Raitaru, they are worth 552m and the first one dropped 55m of fuel, second dropped nothing but was unfitted, another 20m of fuel but was unfit, a fitted one 934m of stuff dropped. Hell they are so easy to kill and that is profit in my book, that was just a quick assessment of the most recent losses. EDIT: I looked further and fitted ones went from between 350m to 958m of loot drops.

There is loot involved in them, but it is not an easy loot fountain of easy wealth...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#25 - 2017-01-22 10:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Deckel wrote:
If you really want/need to get rid of the competition and the vulnerability window is no good for most or your corp members then you are pretty much out of luck.




Alarm clock? Oh no you just want easy mode. I thought you were serious. You want to "alter" the window to fight them in YOUR timezone because you're risk averse to fighting them in THEIR timezone. No. It's up to you to SOLVE the problem, not beg CCP to change the problem and make it easier for you.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#26 - 2017-01-22 10:12:29 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
there is no loot or profit in it.


There's a kill mail. And the knowledge that you put someone out several billion. Do you actually EVE?
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#27 - 2017-01-22 10:49:02 UTC
This will never become a real problem, ccp has already written the code to remove the projected excess of citadels. Drifters will now attack and re-attack citadels after reinforcement timers to kill them , the same as they do with POS that are used to farm them.
If and when the number of citadels becomes a problem in a system all they need to is have a 'special' drifter incursion and let the autonomous rats clear them out.

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı
Salvos Rhoska
#28 - 2017-01-22 11:06:23 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
there is no loot or profit in it.


There's a kill mail. And the knowledge that you put someone out several billion. Do you actually EVE?


Yes, I do.

Neither of those are loot or profit.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Davian Thule Pirkibo
Caldari 1
Caldari Alliance
#29 - 2017-01-22 15:25:27 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Why limit them?

take a visit to perimeter
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#30 - 2017-01-22 15:37:05 UTC
Davian Thule Pirkibo wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Why limit them?

take a visit to perimeter


So what!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#31 - 2017-01-22 23:54:05 UTC
i support any group that is taking these things down. its obvious ccp did not realize the fault of their delusions.. now you can see this full frontal on how structures have been deployed. you have complete lack and disregard of thought process here


limit the number of citadel structures per system based on standings!.. point blank this makes sense and for those "standings services" nerf it to the point that you have to really have high standings to set down this close to the trade hubs.

also its beyond time ccp and mr. stubborn fozzie rebalance the war dec system just due to the known exploits thats been occurring.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#32 - 2017-01-23 01:24:40 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:

90 days without any fuel consumption in the structure: Shields begin to deteriorate. Shields are gone after 180 days and armor is exposed to open space. Armor is gone after another 90 days and damage seeps into structure.

Once the first structure hitpoint is gone, you cannot online anything anymore, until structure and armor damage are both repaired to full. After another 90 days of neglect, structure hitpoints are gone too. The whole thing goes boom, drops in space whatever it would drop in an attack and asset safety kicks in. So exactly after 360 days of neglect it's gone for good.

If you actively repair your structure (shields, armor, structure), you can keep it afloat without any fuel consumption.

Edit: @OP: No, i don't think this should be reglemented much. It's the players job to keep their space clean Pirate.


I like this approach with the decay of the structure.

I would also double or tripple the vulnerability Window of medium citadels. Grace period is over Blink

Or completly remove the Initial vulnerability window and let us shoot at citadels whenever we want. Off course you have to show up for the other two timers still left.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#33 - 2017-01-23 07:45:01 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Lulu Lunette wrote:
I've always kind of wondered how well some sort of degradation mechanic could work in New Eden? If left unpowered or unoccupied long enough, the Control Towers and Astrahaus' and POCO's eventually lose their orbits or maybe better yet - much, much easier to destroy. Maybe instead of 5,000,000 hitpoints, it's like 250k. (just brainstorming not really serious)

90 days without any fuel consumption in the structure: Shields begin to deteriorate. Shields are gone after 180 days and armor is exposed to open space. Armor is gone after another 90 days and damage seeps into structure.

Once the first structure hitpoint is gone, you cannot online anything anymore, until structure and armor damage are both repaired to full. After another 90 days of neglect, structure hitpoints are gone too. The whole thing goes boom, drops in space whatever it would drop in an attack and asset safety kicks in. So exactly after 360 days of neglect it's gone for good.

If you actively repair your structure (shields, armor, structure), you can keep it afloat without any fuel consumption.

Edit: @OP: No, i don't think this should be reglemented much. It's the players job to keep their space clean Pirate.

Mara I love this idea with one slight change.

It degrades through shields and armor but structure stays what it is. This would mean that removal is only ONE wardec and immediate destruction away. Which still puts it in players hands in order to destroy rather than gameplay itself.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Moksa Elodie
Hijo de la Luna
#34 - 2017-01-23 13:40:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

The more you are taking down in the same area of space, the less bother it becomes actually, because you will have your fleet up already and at least some of them will have timers close enough together.


But the majority of citadels are Astrahus', which have a 3 hour intial vulnerablity period per week. Having a large amount of citadels to take down could end up being a 2 week slog or in high could end up being 3 weeks worth of war decs(unless I am, mistaken on the ability of the citadel owners changing the vulnerablity window at short notice).

So how much less bother is spending 2-3 weeks structure grinding?

Personally I feel the vulnerablity window of citadels should be much larger than it is now but this is veering the thread off course
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#35 - 2017-01-23 15:04:06 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Neither of those are loot or profit.


You're missing the point. Loot or profit are not the only motivators in this game. There's fun, and good old schadenfreude. Neither need to be profitable nor provide loot. The pleasure and profit are derived from the act itself.
Salvos Rhoska
#36 - 2017-01-23 15:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Ptraci wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Neither of those are loot or profit.


You're missing the point. Loot or profit are not the only motivators in this game. There's fun, and good old schadenfreude. Neither need to be profitable nor provide loot. The pleasure and profit are derived from the act itself.


There was no point to miss.
You never said anything about fun, and neither did I. Yet you argue now as if you had.
I said there is no loot or profit in it.
I never said it cant be done for fun or griefing.
But neither of those constitutes loot or profit.

Fun is not profit. Schadenfreude is not loot.

I am still right on that.

Goddam how I detest people that try to backpedal their own statements under various convenient excuses.

I dont expect someone like you to understand that. You cant.
You are blind to your own dishonesty, and presume others to somehow telepathically read your "intent", when infact youve said nothing that indicates it. What makes it even worse, is that never, even once, enters your mind that that is your own fault, much less ever extending that same empathy and attempt to understand someones point on their part either.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2017-01-23 15:29:01 UTC
Funny, I'm pretty sure CCP very clearly stated there would be salvage of worth from just the Citadel itself detonating.
Not to mention modules and ammo drops.

Unless you mean to tell me you've gone and blown a few up yourself and they dropped no wreck at all and therefore are bugged....
That sure sounds like loot to me, or is it just not shiny billions of loot enough.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-01-23 15:55:15 UTC
Deckel wrote:
While we're on the subject, there should probably be a method for a third party to alter the vulnerability window of a structure. If you really want/need to get rid of the competition and the vulnerability window is no good for most or your corp members then you are pretty much out of luck.

Hack the station during a vulnerability window to alter the time of day for when the next one is to occur, and can't be reset until the next one?
-Naturally if this is caught before the end of the current vulnerability window, then likely it can be be changed back, with either another hack or owner/corp permissions


There are these groups of players called mercenaries that, for a fee, will handle this sort of thing.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Salvos Rhoska
#39 - 2017-01-23 16:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Funny, I'm pretty sure CCP very clearly stated there would be salvage of worth from just the Citadel itself detonating.
Not to mention modules and ammo drops.

Unless you mean to tell me you've gone and blown a few up yourself and they dropped no wreck at all and therefore are bugged....
That sure sounds like loot to me, or is it just not shiny billions of loot enough.


Yes, there is some loot. But not much.

The effort required, in terms of time and assets involved, dwarf the loot value, especially if the Citadel is defended.
The dropped loot is not an incentive.

We are talking about a small fraction of the value of the Citadel, and none of its held assets which are magically saved by Asset Safety.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#40 - 2017-01-23 16:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Elenahina wrote:
Deckel wrote:
While we're on the subject, there should probably be a method for a third party to alter the vulnerability window of a structure. If you really want/need to get rid of the competition and the vulnerability window is no good for most or your corp members then you are pretty much out of luck.

Hack the station during a vulnerability window to alter the time of day for when the next one is to occur, and can't be reset until the next one?
-Naturally if this is caught before the end of the current vulnerability window, then likely it can be be changed back, with either another hack or owner/corp permissions


There are these groups of players called mercenaries that, for a fee, will handle this sort of thing.


Afaik, nobody except the Citadel owners can do anything to change the vulnerability windows.
Mercs cant do it.

The only way to as ascertain these vulnerability windows is observing it frequently on a daily basis for a week.
And even then, the Citadel owners can set a new, different, vulnerability schedule for the next week.
Or, ofc, obtain the schedule via a mole.

Mercs cant do anything to change those windows.

As ro Deckels suggestion:
-It would mean taking away control of the assets settings away from its owner.
-At worst it would mean having to reset the windows against dozens of hacks, perpetually throughout the day, everyday.
-Since only Station Managers can adjust the window, this would create a necessity for being online basically all the time, and constantly checking vulnerability windows settings, which may also require being specifically in that system to do so.
-Its unworkable.
-Either recon the Citadel for its vulnerability windows, or get the data from an insider by means at your disposal.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent