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Why does caldari militia fail? Your viewsplease
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#341 - 2012-01-19 20:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Galatica789 wrote:


Nobody in the Miltia has the sack to force people to train for certian ships, 3 basi's with some drakes and rooks = one raging Gallente man. If they wanna go nano? shield scimi's with lach support and loki boosts, if they sensor damp those scimi have dedicated remote sebo scipted targeting range, God I would make an exclenent Chef for the squids



I'm actually way ahead of you but went about it a different route. Instead of recruiting all the bitter vets that want to do everything their way, I'm recruiting new guys that want to learn how to PVP. Scimis & Basi's are way off but I'm slowly building up a little Drake Army.

Starting with mostly new guys is of course resulting in a not so lovely kill to death ratio for our little corp KB. There is already a few LOL's up there, but I'm pretty sure as we get the new guys up to speed results will start to show a bit better. The biggest problem is getting new guys up to speed on the training and why they should fit their ships a specific way vs what ever they happened to come up with or read on battleclinic.

So far most of them have been very open to training to fit the ship fits that we need, but it would be 10 times easier to do this in Minmatar Militia vs Caldari. Simply because as Caldari we pretty much have to avoid frigs because Kestral isn't gonna do much as a missile platform with a new piliot.. We can't use the Corm because it requires gun skills which leaves us with Caracals & Drakes, which is kinda frustrating due to limited amount of ship types we can get the new guys into.

With winmatar we could of gone Rifter, Thrasher, Rupture,Stabber, Hurricane, Tornado with the new guys and had a much more effective range of ships to use. I tend to think that Caldari's limited amount of useful ships tends to be part of the reason Caldari has issues because to have effective cruiser & frig gangs we pretty much have to have the guys cross train to Minmatar to use the Thrasher & Rupture.

Gallentte actually have a similar situation but it's slightly reversed. They have a decent range of very effective frigs & Cruisers but BC's aren't the best for gangs. The Myrm is still a workable small gang ship, but It's not going to compare to a gang of Drakes much like a gang of Caracals would never compare to a Gang of Thoraxs or Vexors.
Boyd Achura
#342 - 2012-01-19 22:09:39 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

So far most of them have been very open to training to fit the ship fits that we need, but it would be 10 times easier to do this in Minmatar Militia vs Caldari. Simply because as Caldari we pretty much have to avoid frigs because Kestral isn't gonna do much as a missile platform with a new piliot.. We can't use the Corm because it requires gun skills which leaves us with Caracals & Drakes, which is kinda frustrating due to limited amount of ship types we can get the new guys into.

With winmatar we could of gone Rifter, Thrasher, Rupture,Stabber, Hurricane, Tornado with the new guys and had a much more effective range of ships to use. I tend to think that Caldari's limited amount of useful ships tends to be part of the reason Caldari has issues because to have effective cruiser & frig gangs we pretty much have to have the guys cross train to Minmatar to use the Thrasher & Rupture.

Gallentte actually have a similar situation but it's slightly reversed. They have a decent range of very effective frigs & Cruisers but BC's aren't the best for gangs. The Myrm is still a workable small gang ship, but It's not going to compare to a gang of Drakes much like a gang of Caracals would never compare to a Gang of Thoraxs or Vexors.


This. You're bang-on corect about the lack of linear subcap progression.

I started my training with hybrids because I knew I needed to start small with the merlin. It took me over a year to realize that this was leading me down a path of most resistance, and I still don't feel there is a lot of momentum behind these ships after the hybrid buff due to their ship-specific issues (most of them plagued by speed and fitting issues).

It's one of those things that pilots who didn't "grow up," on caldari (or gallente) really do not consider, but it makes all the difference when you're under 20-30mil sp and trying to train for workable gang ships/fits.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#343 - 2012-01-19 22:18:59 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Gallentte actually have a similar situation but it's slightly reversed. They have a decent range of very effective frigs & Cruisers but BC's aren't the best for gangs. The Myrm is still a workable small gang ship, but It's not going to compare to a gang of Drakes much like a gang of Caracals would never compare to a Gang of Thoraxs or Vexors.


I fully agree with you except for this point: I would readily take a gang of caracals for their damage projection over a gang of thorax's or vexors, for the same reason you'd take a gang of drakes over a gang of myrms.

Gang: 5-10+
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#344 - 2012-01-19 23:02:43 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Gallentte actually have a similar situation but it's slightly reversed. They have a decent range of very effective frigs & Cruisers but BC's aren't the best for gangs. The Myrm is still a workable small gang ship, but It's not going to compare to a gang of Drakes much like a gang of Caracals would never compare to a Gang of Thoraxs or Vexors.


I fully agree with you except for this point: I would readily take a gang of caracals for their damage projection over a gang of thorax's or vexors, for the same reason you'd take a gang of drakes over a gang of myrms.

Gang: 5-10+


And most people were so hostile to the idea of drakes initially. Forming a drake fleet with the intention of having projected dps had reactions such as "I could have f*cked your mom and come back before my missiles land" and they argued about it. Said individual was kicked from fleet and wardecced later on Big smile Now drakes are considered "good" ships by just about everyone and "overpowered" by others.

Speaking of caracals, just watch chatgris...just you watch.... Blink
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#345 - 2012-01-20 01:45:35 UTC
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.
Galatica789
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#346 - 2012-01-20 03:31:03 UTC
Just shoot the bitter Vets until they get the sacks back together
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#347 - 2012-01-20 05:46:03 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#348 - 2012-01-20 06:18:14 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink


In medium plexes caracal is one the best t1 cruisers, with light missiles it has about 50m range, it can chase away or kill tacklers and it can stay out of enemy range mostly and it has decent tank.

So it is always on optimal when you go in plex.

Also Caldari militia could built drake fleet on no time by using same method than draketrain did. experienced pilots who have skills fly scimitars, lachesis, rapier and command ship boost, newer players fly drakes. Then you use nano tactics to stay away from enemy tackle and dps. MWD for all, even for scimitars who try to be as far as possible from enemy , still able to remote rep ofc.

By keeping range you do not have to usually tank so much dps, ofc this is always dependable what enemy flies, Drake fleet has it counters.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#349 - 2012-01-20 08:43:32 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink


In medium plexes caracal is one the best t1 cruisers, with light missiles it has about 50m range, it can chase away or kill tacklers and it can stay out of enemy range mostly and it has decent tank.

So it is always on optimal when you go in plex.

Also Caldari militia could built drake fleet on no time by using same method than draketrain did. experienced pilots who have skills fly scimitars, lachesis, rapier and command ship boost, newer players fly drakes. Then you use nano tactics to stay away from enemy tackle and dps. MWD for all, even for scimitars who try to be as far as possible from enemy , still able to remote rep ofc.

By keeping range you do not have to usually tank so much dps, ofc this is always dependable what enemy flies, Drake fleet has it counters.


actually this works with other shiptypes now ;) .... ibs succesfully practised with some tier3s
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#350 - 2012-01-20 11:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
chatgris wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Gallentte actually have a similar situation but it's slightly reversed. They have a decent range of very effective frigs & Cruisers but BC's aren't the best for gangs. The Myrm is still a workable small gang ship, but It's not going to compare to a gang of Drakes much like a gang of Caracals would never compare to a Gang of Thoraxs or Vexors.


I fully agree with you except for this point: I would readily take a gang of caracals for their damage projection over a gang of thorax's or vexors, for the same reason you'd take a gang of drakes over a gang of myrms.

Gang: 5-10+


Keep in mind I'm talking a gang consisting of low skilled players. While a high skilled player can fit somewhat decent HML Caracal with new guys they are likely stuck with T1 assaults which means they can't get the higher damage T2 light assault missiles. For this reason a gang of Thoraxs is far better if you figure the ships would be mostly fit T1.

As far as High skilled players I'd take a gang of Vexors over even Ruptures. Lol
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#351 - 2012-01-20 11:39:25 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink


In medium plexes caracal is one the best t1 cruisers, with light missiles it has about 50m range, it can chase away or kill tacklers and it can stay out of enemy range mostly and it has decent tank.

So it is always on optimal when you go in plex.

Also Caldari militia could built drake fleet on no time by using same method than draketrain did. experienced pilots who have skills fly scimitars, lachesis, rapier and command ship boost, newer players fly drakes. Then you use nano tactics to stay away from enemy tackle and dps. MWD for all, even for scimitars who try to be as far as possible from enemy , still able to remote rep ofc.

By keeping range you do not have to usually tank so much dps, ofc this is always dependable what enemy flies, Drake fleet has it counters.


Not everyone fights in plexes..where you are dictating the range right from the start. The most common place fights happen are around gates which usually means very close range combat.. This is bad news for Caracals when facing other T1 cruisers like Ruptures, Vexors or Thoraxs.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#352 - 2012-01-20 12:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
Mutnin wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink


In medium plexes caracal is one the best t1 cruisers, with light missiles it has about 50m range, it can chase away or kill tacklers and it can stay out of enemy range mostly and it has decent tank.

So it is always on optimal when you go in plex.

Also Caldari militia could built drake fleet on no time by using same method than draketrain did. experienced pilots who have skills fly scimitars, lachesis, rapier and command ship boost, newer players fly drakes. Then you use nano tactics to stay away from enemy tackle and dps. MWD for all, even for scimitars who try to be as far as possible from enemy , still able to remote rep ofc.

By keeping range you do not have to usually tank so much dps, ofc this is always dependable what enemy flies, Drake fleet has it counters.


Not everyone fights in plexes..where you are dictating the range right from the start. The most common place fights happen are around gates which usually means very close range combat.. This is bad news for Caracals when facing other T1 cruisers like Ruptures, Vexors or Thoraxs.


Not really bad news, but you have take range at the start and try to dictate it in the end, some may go down, but rest should be able to clear the field. Caracal with light missiles has quite much tank as t1 cruiser. Jumping trough gate to camp usually makes your starting point out of scram range so there should be no problem to take range.

Thoraxes may be quite challenging these days after boost, because rail thorax could be valid option.

Dictating range is always important thing , no matter where combat happens, you should always be in the range that favors your setup.

Edit: Caracal has it weak points too, caracals cap runs out quite fast on burning with mwd so that may be the problem in the end.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2012-01-20 17:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Bad Messenger wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

Super Chair wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
HAHA!

This is really hilarious, you are trying to figure out fleet setups with drakes and caracals which some people have use years effectively.

I have to admit that now i have lost all hope for Caldari militia.


Woah now, I love the caracal and have been flying it for years. It's just a chore of getting everyone else to fly them. Blink


In medium plexes caracal is one the best t1 cruisers, with light missiles it has about 50m range, it can chase away or kill tacklers and it can stay out of enemy range mostly and it has decent tank.

So it is always on optimal when you go in plex.

Also Caldari militia could built drake fleet on no time by using same method than draketrain did. experienced pilots who have skills fly scimitars, lachesis, rapier and command ship boost, newer players fly drakes. Then you use nano tactics to stay away from enemy tackle and dps. MWD for all, even for scimitars who try to be as far as possible from enemy , still able to remote rep ofc.

By keeping range you do not have to usually tank so much dps, ofc this is always dependable what enemy flies, Drake fleet has it counters.


Not everyone fights in plexes..where you are dictating the range right from the start. The most common place fights happen are around gates which usually means very close range combat.. This is bad news for Caracals when facing other T1 cruisers like Ruptures, Vexors or Thoraxs.


Not really bad news, but you have take range at the start and try to dictate it in the end, some may go down, but rest should be able to clear the field. Caracal with light missiles has quite much tank as t1 cruiser. Jumping trough gate to camp usually makes your starting point out of scram range so there should be no problem to take range.

Thoraxes may be quite challenging these days after boost, because rail thorax could be valid option.

Dictating range is always important thing , no matter where combat happens, you should always be in the range that favors your setup.

Edit: Caracal has it weak points too, caracals cap runs out quite fast on burning with mwd so that may be the problem in the end.



Rail Thorax is a very viable option now.

(EDIT - Found it thanks to Vessper. Thank you!)

I am still fiddling with the lows, but I have been flying a 200mm rail thorax around as a solo plexing ship recently. Unlike my other blaster Thoraxii, it will actually survive multiple pvp engagements. Its also good bait for small gangs, because people still try to primary you and you can outrun them. Its a nice little gang dps and tackle ship and does ok solo. I had a shield tank arazu in low armor before his tempest buddy came in and alphaed me because I wasnt watching short scan... It also absolutely destroys medium plexes solo. You will have to turn on your repper once on the last wave for one cycle. (And you can get the exact same dps performance out of an ENI fit the same way, except the ENI is ~500m/s faster under MWD).

Does ~350 dps out to long point range (18+14) with Fed Plutonium and light drones. 375 with Valk drones.
Does ~240 dps out to lock range (40+14) with Fed Tungsten and light drones, more with Valks.
~250 dps (55+16) with Spike if you are fighting targets above frigate size.

I dont fly Caracals or Stabbers, so I dont know how this compares, but I would guess they are in the same league...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#354 - 2012-01-20 21:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Hrett wrote:


Rail Thorax is a very viable option now.

(EDIT - Found it thanks to Vessper. Thank you!)

I am still fiddling with the lows, but I have been flying a 200mm rail thorax around as a solo plexing ship recently. Unlike my other blaster Thoraxii, it will actually survive multiple pvp engagements. Its also good bait for small gangs, because people still try to primary you and you can outrun them. Its a nice little gang dps and tackle ship and does ok solo. I had a shield tank arazu in low armor before his tempest buddy came in and alphaed me because I wasnt watching short scan... It also absolutely destroys medium plexes solo. You will have to turn on your repper once on the last wave for one cycle. (And you can get the exact same dps performance out of an ENI fit the same way, except the ENI is ~500m/s faster under MWD).

Does ~350 dps out to long point range (18+14) with Fed Plutonium and light drones. 375 with Valk drones.
Does ~240 dps out to lock range (40+14) with Fed Tungsten and light drones, more with Valks.
~250 dps (55+16) with Spike if you are fighting targets above frigate size.

I dont fly Caracals or Stabbers, so I dont know how this compares, but I would guess they are in the same league...


The Caracal just doesn't have grid to really fit much to even compare with the stats of your Rail Thorax. If you fit T2 HML's you can get roughly 300 DPS. If you fit T2 HAM's you can get just over 400DPS which sounds fine ... except you can pretty much only fit a MWD unless you use both your lows for fitting mods and possible rig spots as well.

This means to get anything somewhat useful using med launchers you have to use T1 meta or drop a launcher which takes away from your already pitiful DPS in a Cruiser size hull. The Caracal simply does not have the power grid to fit Med weapons on a "useful" set up.

It pretty much makes the Caracal a 1 trick Pony meaning the only real viable fits are Light Assault missiles. Despite what BM or whom ever might say as to how great the Caracal is.. I really doubt you will see many 1v1 cruiser kills on their KB's where they were the victor using a Caracal. (ok I'm sure they have probably killled some noob at sometime in one but reality is the Caracal is only a 1 trick pony of anti frig killer or fleet support in a gang)

Meanwhile look at the range of fittings you can do with a Vexor, Thorax or Rupture.. All can fit their native "med" weapon systems + fit damage mods, MWD & tank.

Example a all level V char in a Rupture ends up with 1075 power grid.. Thorax has 1025.. Meanwhile that same char in a Caracal ends up with 662.5 power grid. This makes it next to impossible to fit out a useful med weapon system. With out gimping your entire fit with power upgrades.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#355 - 2012-01-21 03:02:44 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Hrett wrote:


Rail Thorax is a very viable option now.

(EDIT - Found it thanks to Vessper. Thank you!)

I am still fiddling with the lows, but I have been flying a 200mm rail thorax around as a solo plexing ship recently. Unlike my other blaster Thoraxii, it will actually survive multiple pvp engagements. Its also good bait for small gangs, because people still try to primary you and you can outrun them. Its a nice little gang dps and tackle ship and does ok solo. I had a shield tank arazu in low armor before his tempest buddy came in and alphaed me because I wasnt watching short scan... It also absolutely destroys medium plexes solo. You will have to turn on your repper once on the last wave for one cycle. (And you can get the exact same dps performance out of an ENI fit the same way, except the ENI is ~500m/s faster under MWD).

Does ~350 dps out to long point range (18+14) with Fed Plutonium and light drones. 375 with Valk drones.
Does ~240 dps out to lock range (40+14) with Fed Tungsten and light drones, more with Valks.
~250 dps (55+16) with Spike if you are fighting targets above frigate size.

I dont fly Caracals or Stabbers, so I dont know how this compares, but I would guess they are in the same league...


The Caracal just doesn't have grid to really fit much to even compare with the stats of your Rail Thorax. If you fit T2 HML's you can get roughly 300 DPS. If you fit T2 HAM's you can get just over 400DPS which sounds fine ... except you can pretty much only fit a MWD unless you use both your lows for fitting mods and possible rig spots as well.

This means to get anything somewhat useful using med launchers you have to use T1 meta or drop a launcher which takes away from your already pitiful DPS in a Cruiser size hull. The Caracal simply does not have the power grid to fit Med weapons on a "useful" set up.

It pretty much makes the Caracal a 1 trick Pony meaning the only real viable fits are Light Assault missiles. Despite what BM or whom ever might say as to how great the Caracal is.. I really doubt you will see many 1v1 cruiser kills on their KB's where they were the victor using a Caracal. (ok I'm sure they have probably killled some noob at sometime in one but reality is the Caracal is only a 1 trick pony of anti frig killer or fleet support in a gang)

Meanwhile look at the range of fittings you can do with a Vexor, Thorax or Rupture.. All can fit their native "med" weapon systems + fit damage mods, MWD & tank.

Example a all level V char in a Rupture ends up with 1075 power grid.. Thorax has 1025.. Meanwhile that same char in a Caracal ends up with 662.5 power grid. This makes it next to impossible to fit out a useful med weapon system. With out gimping your entire fit with power upgrades.


Caldari ships are not usually good solo pvp ships, but in small gang caracal is good.

Example if you want to fight against rail thorax you should stay as far as possible so long you can, kill his drones maybe first and then decide to bail or not.

On plex fights you do not have to keep people pointed all the time because idea is to hold ground on timer. If enemy warps away you achieved victory on plexing view point. If enemy want to win plex they have stay on timer so you have to chase them away or kill them. For that caracal is quite good.
Galatica789
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#356 - 2012-01-23 14:17:16 UTC
Caldari isnt a mitlia, its a missioning coaltion, Damar/Bad deliveryman can confirm
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#357 - 2012-01-23 19:02:39 UTC
Galatica789 wrote:
Caldari isnt a mitlia, its a missioning coaltion, Damar/Bad deliveryman can confirm

From the killboard, you could argue it is an expeditionary force to the other warzone.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#358 - 2012-01-24 01:36:38 UTC
Galatica789 wrote:
Caldari isnt a mitlia, its a missioning coaltion, Damar/Bad deliveryman can confirm


Confirming we missioned over 220 kills this month with about 6 members. More missioning planed, because some basterds returned from vacations in serious pvp corps. We are all adicted to fw missioning. Day without missioning is day wasted.
Izlare
State War Academy
Caldari State
#359 - 2012-01-24 07:17:28 UTC
Can't we all just get along?

Squids kill Frogs
Frogs kill Squids

It shouldn't be that hard but I think there is a lot of hate within the Cal Ranks.
Galatica789
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#360 - 2012-01-24 14:18:02 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Galatica789 wrote:
Caldari isnt a mitlia, its a missioning coaltion, Damar/Bad deliveryman can confirm


Confirming we missioned over 220 kills this month with about 6 members. More missioning planed, because some basterds returned from vacations in serious pvp corps. We are all adicted to fw missioning. Day without missioning is day wasted.



Confirming 220 Caldari Navy BCU's were made by 6 squids in a month