EVE General Discussion

"I want to attack and kill this guy" = PVP
"I put in effort to avoid being attacked or killed by that guy" = PVP
"I want to sell my goods at the best prices to wring the most profit from it" = PVP
"I want to buy at the cheapest prices and put in effort with buy orders and choosing the right location" = PVP
"I'm trying to produce my goods at a lower cost than most others, so I can make profit" = PVP
"I'll do anything to control this area for my own benefit, including ganks, ransoms, wars and harsh language" = PVP
"I optimise my mining and location trying to get the best and most ore before anyone else does" = PVP
"I want to use my LP the best way to to get the highest isk conversion" = PVP

PVP = competition against others and it's everywhere in EVE. Anyone who still thinks that PVP = "shooting people" or that there's a lot of griefing going in EVE should wake up and get with the program.

Anyone younger than 30 days while being in some very specific systems is protected, if you're older and/or not in those systems you're a target in any way possible. In EVE no one is innocent and most "new players" are alts.

/sigh

I used "Grunting Neanderthal" in the earlier post to set up the "self-classify" option as another alternative to pointing out logic errors, which is boring. "The map is not the territory" had a similar purpose (it has its own wikipedia page).

I thought you just used grunting Neanderthal because it was your native language.

As to everything else, who cares anymore. Your whining gives good tears but is otherwise pointless. There are no medals for participation here. Win or lose. Your choice. If you find yourself losing to an alpha, then that's not their griefing. It's only your own incompetence.

If we go with the usual definiton of PvP as you suggest (i.e. if it's players fighting/competing it's PvP) then the numerous arguments that all PvP is good behavior become null.

Hence griefing is a different thing, and Thag's argument (if it's game-legal it can't be griefing) is also null.

BTW - I provided a serviceable definition of griefing earlier, but unfortunately I didn't note the post number(s). I don't know if you've seen them, so I'm not sure you have any basis at all for your implied claim "You keep calling things griefing based on what griefing would be in other games".

That reads like a classic straw man, but it's not certain. If you want to talk, ask me and I'll look for the post(s) that would allow us to make your text meaningful. Or you can tell me what you believe I've said of course .- it would be interesting to see if your post is based on evidence, or if you're trying to join Thag's tribe.

There are no arguments claiming it is good behaviour, because the only people applying morality to video game behaviour are you and other people like you who've been here for about five minutes and think you know everything about the game. You actually don't know ****, as is demonstrable by your comments about it thus far. There is no 'behaviour', there is gameplay, and that is all. There is no good, there is no bad, because moralistic determinations are not applicable to ******* pixels, and in EVE, that gameplay is always in competition with someone else's gameplay. As a result, some people have to lose so that others can win. If these 'losers' have a good attitude about it, they say 'gf' and move on, having learned from it so that some day in the near future, they can stop losing. If these losers have a bad attitude, like you, they come onto the forums and whine about 'griefing', which if actual griefing is actually happening, the correct course of action is to file a ticket, and if the GMs don't do anything, then it wasn't griefing. Because once again, what might be considered griefing elsewhere is not considered griefing here. It really is that simple. There is no argument here. I'm not arguing with you, Hakawai, I'm explaining why I'm right. You can accept that and learn something from it, and as a result learn something about the game and get better at it, or you can continue to pig-headedly refuse to accept what EVE is, and never accomplish anything except more whining on the forums.

Not sure why you never address my posts to you where I actually make an effort to clarify the definitions which obviously are confusing you a lot. maybe you are just interested in trolling and not in an actual discussion?

Ive said similar before, but I will re-iterate.

Afaik, CCP almost, if not universally avoids using the term "greifing" throughout their devblogs etc.
Neither TOS or EULA offers a definition either, or makes mention of it.

What constitutes griefing in EVE, is thus entirely a matter of opinion of individual players.

We can argue and debate what constitutes griefing, but its all based on personal opinion.

In anycase, griefing, no matter how you define it or apply it, does not for all intents and purposes exist in EVE, atleast as something that is not allowed.

Harassment is not allowed. Extreme incidents like the "Bonus Room" scandal are not allowed.
Certain actions in rookie systems are not allowed.

But griefing? There is no mention or definition of it in a EVE/CCP context.

I personally dont perceive any action in EVE as constituting griefing, within its internal context.
Or, if you prefer, any and all conduct anyone might consider to be griefing, is nonetheless allowed.

---

My definitions:

-Ganking:
--The act of attempting to overwhelm a target(s) with superior numbers, by surprise.

-Greifing:
--Action taken with the intent to cause and/or exacerbate grief in the target, as an emotional reaction to impending, possible or actual loss.

Thus ganking in and of itself, is not griefing.

Inorder for it to also be griefing, it must show the intent, by action, for causing/exacerbating an emotional reaction of grief.

Grief is a complex construct of multiple emotions resulting from impending, possible or actual loss, for the purposes of dealing with that loss. Grief is experienced, and expressed, uniquely in each instance, but carries the same 5 stages, in whichever sequence or severity.

Griefing aims to cause and/or exacerbate that emotional reaction. Such that, for example:
-If the target exhibits anger, depression, denial or bargaining the antagonist will attempt to exacerbate them.
-If the target exhibits behavior indicative of acceptance, the antagonist will attempt to exacerbate the above negative emotions instead, or switch actions to exacerbate another, away from acceptance.

You are free to argue and debate my definitions, but I find them more accurate and etymologically true to their origin than various online dictionary definitions that are conflating concepts the authors do not understand.
Greifing first emerged as a concept in Ultima Online's early years.
Ganking first emerged as a concept in DOTA, as distinct from creep-jacking etc.
The coinage of these terms, in these contexts, is the most accurate to their intended meaning.

Ok.
Ive removed the line in question in deference to your correction.

Competition is good. Competition is why the price of items on the market are what they are. Without competition you'd have 1 player or CCP dictating the price. But CCP has set up a set up a system where players will minimize costs in pursuit of profits.

And yes, I saw your definition on griefing as causing a player to waste time. But that means a great many things can become griefing when in fact they are merely competition.

For example, you see a price differential between an item in two regions, an arbitrage opportunity. You buy the stuff cheap and rush it over to the station with the high price (lets even say it is a buy order). But I noticed the same thing shortly before you did and beat you to it. When you dock up and eagerly try to sell your stuff you see that high price buy order is no longer there. I just caused you to waste time.

However, I also provided a benefit to that player who put up the buy order. I filled it sooner than you did so he is better off.

Your problem is you are incredibly self-centered. With you it is "Me, me, me, me, me, me." If the roles were reversed and you beat me to fulfilling that sales order I would not say, "Oh boo-hoo griefing." I'd say, "Well...dammit." Then I'd look into minimizing any losses or trying to turn my initial investment into a positive outcome (i.e. are there other buy orders that I can profit from, put up a sell order, try going to the forums and making a post to off load the stuff at cost, etc.).

...

I'm a sociopath and I'm OK
I grief all night and I burp all day.

I get free kills and wreck **** up
While I sit on my lavatory.

On wednesdays I go scamming
and double isk for free.

I get free kills, I spin in dock
and like to compress my ores.

I put on womens clothing
and hang in my quarters.

I get free kills, I shed my tears
while mining in a barge.

I wish I'd been a carebear
just like my dear Haka.

...