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Is the Alpha clone a problem?

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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#441 - 2017-01-17 20:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Do you claim there is profit in killing noobs?


Outside of rookie systems,people kill noobs for the same reason CODE ganks miners. Not my cup of tea (I've killed exactly one MTU in HS and never ganked anyone) but it's a valid playstyle. There's profit in enjoyment of your playstyle and having fun the way you want.

EVE tells you you can be the villain. That was literally in their ads for a while. You saying there's no profit in killing noobs is like someone telling you there's no profit in missioning. Let people do what they enjoy. That's the point of a sandbox.


The entire complaint about newb-killing is a largely fictional contrivance. There are probably a few people, of the hundreds of thousands of people playing, who actually "kill newbs", specifically.

For most people, the fact that the guy they just killed was a newb simply isn't relevant information. How would one even know?

Character age? Could be a veteran's new alt. Could be packing a cyno. Could be skill injected. Could have a cargo full of plex. Pirate On the flip side, I've killed plenty of ancient characters who were clearly "noobs" in terms of play skill and mechanical understanding, but it's not like you would ever know they're a bit of a window-licker until you see their Omen was fit with a mixed tank and combination of railguns and small autocannons (because ehrmagerd it's point defense, just like real life phalanx systems on a warship!).


Hey, nobody shoot my alpha alt, he's a real newb! Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#442 - 2017-01-17 21:09:49 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
The entire complaint about newb-killing is a largely fictional contrivance. There are probably a few people, of the hundreds of thousands of people playing, who actually "kill newbs", specifically.

For most people, the fact that the guy they just killed was a newb simply isn't relevant information. How would one even know?

Character age? Could be a veteran's new alt. Could be packing a cyno. Could be skill injected. Could have a cargo full of plex. Pirate On the flip side, I've killed plenty of ancient characters who were clearly "noobs" in terms of play skill and mechanical understanding, but it's not like you would ever know they're a bit of a window-licker until you see their Omen was fit with a mixed tank and combination of railguns and small autocannons (because ehrmagerd it's point defense, just like real life phalanx systems on a warship!).


Hey, nobody shoot my alpha alt, he's a real newb! Roll


Yep, that's why restrictions around killing new players is tied to new players in rookie systems only, not new players anywhere.The guy mining veldspar in a rookie ship in a starter system? That's one thing. The guy ten jumps out doing anything? That's different.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#443 - 2017-01-17 21:39:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you say there is profit in killing noobs?

Ok then.

Enjoy your "profits".

Oh dear, how bitter.. please remember that this is a game and even for a new player it makes the game more interesting if there is actually content around. And in EVE the interesting content, the one which makes people want to subscribe, is provided by other players, in whatever form it comes.

The starter systems are off limits for a good reason, that is where new players learn how to pilot their ship and it is beneficial if this is done in a isolated fashion. Once they know how to warp, dock, shoot, etc they are ready for the game, probably after a few hours.

People who claim they somehow need to dwell in isolation for another month before they can experience the reality of EVE with the engaging and worthwhile content have completely lost their perspective.

It is also not a complain which comes from new players, it only comes from vet carebears who play EVE like it is a second job you pay for and not a game.

Evil RatKid
Tsutola Kostanaiken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#444 - 2017-01-17 22:10:20 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
It is only griefing if you let it get to you, in the immortal words of Taylor Swift "Shake it off." If you are just going to let everything get to you, well you are probably better off not coming back. Conflict is the backbone of eve. Everything revolves around the creation and destruction cycle caused by player choices. Perhaps they thought it was their space and you were the one who started pestering them.

and as others are saying alphas have severe limitations, it would be far easier for them to attack you with omega accounts.


Quoting Taylor Swift is not permitted in this forum. I think there's a sticky somewhere.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#445 - 2017-01-17 22:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tsutola Kostanaiken wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
It is only griefing if you let it get to you, in the immortal words of Taylor Swift "Shake it off." If you are just going to let everything get to you, well you are probably better off not coming back. Conflict is the backbone of eve. Everything revolves around the creation and destruction cycle caused by player choices. Perhaps they thought it was their space and you were the one who started pestering them.

and as others are saying alphas have severe limitations, it would be far easier for them to attack you with omega accounts.


Quoting Taylor Swift is not permitted in this forum. I think there's a sticky somewhere.
Do you want Miley Cyrus quotes? Because that's how you get Miley Cyrus quotes

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#446 - 2017-01-17 23:11:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Do you want Miley Cyrus quotes? Because that's how you get Miley Cyrus quotes


Well this new set of replies really came in like a wrecking ball
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#447 - 2017-01-18 06:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
The discussion seems to have shifted from griefing to "normal EVE PvP" yet again.

Unfortunately the wikipedia article explaining "False Equivalence" isn't well-written, but one of the examples might work:

"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."


Something to reflect on regarding definitions:

One of the odd things about EVE is that it's often claimed to be "a PvP game" as though that statement was a useful definition that can be expected to mean something to other gamers.

EvE players do relatively little combat compared to PvP specialists in other games. The large-scale battles are interesting of course, but definitely unusual. EvE small-scale combat is much more likely to be one-sided than any other game I've played or seen, and consequently much less skill-dependent. Even in a "fair" fight (equal numbers and fighting power) it's hardly comparable to e.g. an RTS.

Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?. Or is the EVE version an undefined term, since it's so different from other games? I've been tempted more than once in this thread to redefine "PvP" to exclude "griefing" just for laughs. Then we could do this:

  • Grunting neanderthal: "PvP therefore griefing good - Thag smash !!1!"
  • Wise, articulate Homo Sapiens Sapiens: "PvP excludes griefing - curb your vicious impulses"

Repeat forever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#448 - 2017-01-18 07:07:54 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
The discussion seems to have shifted from griefing to "normal EVE PvP" yet again.

Unfortunately the wikipedia article explaining "False Equivalence" isn't well-written, but one of the examples might work:

"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."


Something to reflect on regarding definitions:

One of the odd things about EVE is that it's often claimed to be "a PvP game" as though that statement was a useful definition that can be expected to mean something to other gamers.

EvE players do relatively little combat compared to PvP specialists in other games. The large-scale battles are interesting of course, but definitely unusual. EvE small-scale combat is much more likely to be one-sided than any other game I've played or seen, and consequently much less skill-dependent.

Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?. Or is the EVE version an undefined term, since it's so different from other games? I've been tempted more than once in this thread to redefine "PvP" to exclude "griefing" just for laughs. Then we could do this:

  • Grunting neanderthal: "PvP therefore griefing is ok"
  • Wise, articulate Homo Sapiens Sapiens: "PvP excludes griefing - curb your vicious impulses"

Repeat forever.


Tut, tut, tut....defintions. WTF are you thinking. That is dictionary reasoning. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#449 - 2017-01-18 07:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
Hakawai wrote:
The discussion seems to have shifted from griefing to "normal EVE PvP" yet again.

Unfortunately the wikipedia article explaining "False Equivalence" isn't well-written, but one of the examples might work:

"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."


Something to reflect on regarding definitions:

One of the odd things about EVE is that it's often claimed to be "a PvP game" as though that statement was a useful definition that can be expected to mean something to other gamers.

EvE players do relatively little combat compared to PvP specialists in other games. The large-scale battles are interesting of course, but definitely unusual. EvE small-scale combat is much more likely to be one-sided than any other game I've played or seen, and consequently much less skill-dependent. Even in a "fair" fight (equal numbers and fighting power) it's hardly comparable to e.g. an RTS.

Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?. Or is the EVE version an undefined term, since it's so different from other games? I've been tempted more than once in this thread to redefine "PvP" to exclude "griefing" just for laughs. Then we could do this:

  • Grunting neanderthal: "PvP therefore griefing good - Thag smash !!1!"
  • Wise, articulate Homo Sapiens Sapiens: "PvP excludes griefing - curb your vicious impulses"

Repeat forever.


this maybe obsolete because of the changes in the EULA regarding 'alpha clones' but aside from that, i think, it's still a good reference.

to clarify your confustion please refer to this New Pilot FAQ, as stated in Sec. 5.3, this basically describes what PVP in EvE is.

griefing is not allowed in EvE and therefore bannable. shooting somebody, except rookies in rookie system is not griefing.

Just Add Water
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#450 - 2017-01-18 07:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Hakawai wrote:
Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?.

/thread with this thought.

If there's no pvp, then there can be no griefing at all. People who feel the World is against them can rejoice.

Praise be to Bob. The Carebears are safe from the alpha non-Carebears.

Hooray, medals for participation all around. There's no losers here.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#451 - 2017-01-18 07:27:58 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?.

/thread with this thought.

If there's no pvp, then there can be no griefing at all. People who feel the World is against them can rejoice.

Praise be to Bob. The Carebears are safe from the alpha non-Carebears.

Hooray, medals for participation all around. There's no losers here.

This is en entertaining reversal, but you just might have self-classified. "The map is not the territory".
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#452 - 2017-01-18 07:32:32 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
this maybe obsolete because of the changes in the EULA regarding 'alpha clones' but aside from that, i think, it's still a good reference.

to clarify your confustion please refer to this New Pilot FAQ, as stated in Sec. 5.3, this basically describes what PVP in EvE is.

griefing is not allowed in EvE and therefore bannable. shooting somebody, except rookies in rookie system is not griefing.

Yet another irrelevant and irrational "dictionary attack".

I made the comments about whether PvP is a well defined term in EvE as a possible alternative to facing this kind of thing yet again.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#453 - 2017-01-18 07:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Hakawai wrote:
This is en entertaining reversal, but you just might have self-classified. "The map is not the territory".

Everyone self classifies, self identifies, self justifies, self ...

It's not unusual. Look through the thread and you'll find it easy to classify people reasonably well.

There are those that feel everything bad that happens to them is someone else's fault; and those that have a more realistic view of the World.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#454 - 2017-01-18 07:51:09 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Is it really fair to use "PvP" as a well-defined term in EVE?. Or is the EVE version an undefined term, since it's so different from other games?

PvP is an umbrella term and quite literately means Player vs Player and nothing else. Obviously PvP comes in many forms and over the years some terminology has crystallized.

Arena PvP

This is probably what you referring too. Arena PvP is usually a limited engagement in a well defined environment with matched opponents. Example for this are matches in MOBAs, Battleground queues in MMOs etc. Obviously the benefits of this form of PvP is that you can immediately engage and it is "fair".

The only places in EVE where this form of PvP is happening is the Alliance Tournament and some player organized tournament. I think this form of PvP is a bit odd for an MMO, since it feels like an artificially added minigame which has nothing at all to do with the real game. It's natural form is the MOBA where it is the main game.

Open World PvP

The Player engagements which are happening inside the actual MMO game where there are no restrictions or artificial rules and match making. This form is entirely different and the battle is usually decided before it even starts since the fight is not only dependent on an individual pilot skill, but also on: resources at your disposal, your friends, their friends, random entities which may engage everyone or take sides, environmental factors, preparation and and situational awareness, etc.

EVE is all about this form of PvP and it does it very well. In fact there are only a hand full of games out there which truly manage to deliver this form of PvP and in my opinion EVE does it best.

It may be that you are not looking for an open world PvP game and that is why you perceive the unregulated Open World PvP nature of the game as "griefing". Well then you are in luck, since literally every other MMO out there except for a few rear gems are offering what you are looking for, Arena PvP. Go for it, they are waiting for you.

Evil RatKid
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#455 - 2017-01-18 08:14:26 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
this maybe obsolete because of the changes in the EULA regarding 'alpha clones' but aside from that, i think, it's still a good reference.

to clarify your confustion please refer to this New Pilot FAQ, as stated in Sec. 5.3, this basically describes what PVP in EvE is.

griefing is not allowed in EvE and therefore bannable. shooting somebody, except rookies in rookie system is not griefing.

Yet another irrelevant and irrational "dictionary attack".

I made the comments about whether PvP is a well defined term in EvE as a possible alternative to facing this kind of thing yet again.


well, i suggest you consult a doctor if a simple concept like 'PvP' is hard for you to grasp.

i mean really, too hard?! Shocked

Just Add Water
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#456 - 2017-01-18 08:19:13 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
this maybe obsolete because of the changes in the EULA regarding 'alpha clones' but aside from that, i think, it's still a good reference.

to clarify your confustion please refer to this New Pilot FAQ, as stated in Sec. 5.3, this basically describes what PVP in EvE is.

griefing is not allowed in EvE and therefore bannable. shooting somebody, except rookies in rookie system is not griefing.

Yet another irrelevant and irrational "dictionary attack".

I made the comments about whether PvP is a well defined term in EvE as a possible alternative to facing this kind of thing yet again.


You do realize you come across as completely irrational and nonsensical when your criticize people for pointing to definitions while yourself are looking to define a term....right?

Yeah, didn't think so.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#457 - 2017-01-18 08:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
A bit late to the party here on the topic, but...
A couple years ago I bagged a two week old newbie in an orthrus.
Module drops were just shy of 250 million ISK. That would be.... profit.
Do I feel bad?
Nope.
Space Veal.
Yummy, tender, PLEX fattened meat.

If I see faction drones or magpie/packrat MTU's on scan then I know that odds are good that there's someone who has more money than sense out there.
At that point I don't care whether or not it still has spots on it's fur, I'm going after the money.

Granted, I'm looking at what someone's driving and whether or not it's likely to be blinged rather than their age when I seek out playmates. Sometimes I get old crusty players, sometimes it's a wided-eyed space cadet who's about to learn a hard lesson in consequences.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#458 - 2017-01-18 08:29:42 UTC
And yes, PvP is broadly defined as: Player-vs.-Player--i.e. player-on-player competition and it comes in all sorts of sizes an shapes, so to speak. Mining can have PvP elements if two or more players are competing for those resources since those resources are rivalrous and excludable (i.e. if I have the resources you don't). Selling items in Jita and competing with other sellers is a type of PvP. Then of course, there is just plain old vanilla shooting each other PvP.

And with Hakawai's own definition of griefing of: wasting another player's time, most of these activities could be griefing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kalicia Ember
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#459 - 2017-01-18 08:35:33 UTC
I'm a veteran from like 2010 here on a new character (the one I'm posting from, obviously) and I haven't been harassed or shot at by another player even once yet, and I'm operating in a 0.5 system. To me, that's kind of disappointing. To brand new alphas that could be scary, I dunno. I'm not them
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2017-01-18 09:03:09 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
this maybe obsolete because of the changes in the EULA regarding 'alpha clones' but aside from that, i think, it's still a good reference.

to clarify your confustion please refer to this New Pilot FAQ, as stated in Sec. 5.3, this basically describes what PVP in EvE is.

griefing is not allowed in EvE and therefore bannable. shooting somebody, except rookies in rookie system is not griefing.

Yet another irrelevant and irrational "dictionary attack".

I made the comments about whether PvP is a well defined term in EvE as a possible alternative to facing this kind of thing yet again.


PVP is very well and very easily defined, actually. It's player-vs-player, ie any competition between two or more players. This can include combat as much as it can include competition on the market and competition for resources, however that competition plays out. This is why 'griefing' isn't defined the same for EVE as it is for other games, because other games aren't entirely player-driven the same way EVE is, where literally everything, not just the combat, is PVP. You keep calling things griefing based on what griefing would be in other games, which is why you're wrong about griefing in EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104