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Shield tank versus Armor tank: School me

Author
Gizzie Haslack
4249003
#21 - 2017-01-16 13:32:00 UTC
Argumentum ad Populum wrote:
I've quickly learned that the first answer to nearly every EVE question is: "It depends."

I understand the difference between shields and armor (and structure). I understand how each of them is regained/repaired. I know that it's better to go "all in" on one rather than to try and do both.

What I'm not getting is how to determine which one I should be pumping up and why.

1) Is one preferred over the other for PvP? PvE? Why?

2) Do the different races get different bonuses for one or the other?

3) Do different factions lean toward one or the other for mission rewards?

4) What are the exceptions to the rules?



It's pretty simple to follow:

With shields you have a 'penetration' factor where the Armor takes the hit. It happens when shields get weak. And when the Armor goes you have to lose Hull too. To repair you a Logi needs 3 types of healing ( Shield, Armour, and Hull ).

With Armor Tank the Shields heal themselves, albeit a lot slower. You lose a little speed compared to Sheild, fair enough; but there is an Armor Layering skill to cover that. You then lob on a huge-ass plate, and you're ready to rock. So you only need your Logi to carry Armor & Hull, which makes it easier for the Logi to be solid at healing.


Personally I'm an Armor kinda gal, but I can use shields too. On the bigger boats Shield-tanking is fairly pointless in my opinion. Shields are useful for small nippy boats. If you are just gonna sit there and lob bombs or big-blap then I never did see the point.

2p deposited.
mkint
#22 - 2017-01-16 14:13:17 UTC
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
Argumentum ad Populum wrote:
I've quickly learned that the first answer to nearly every EVE question is: "It depends."

I understand the difference between shields and armor (and structure). I understand how each of them is regained/repaired. I know that it's better to go "all in" on one rather than to try and do both.

What I'm not getting is how to determine which one I should be pumping up and why.

1) Is one preferred over the other for PvP? PvE? Why?

2) Do the different races get different bonuses for one or the other?

3) Do different factions lean toward one or the other for mission rewards?

4) What are the exceptions to the rules?



It's pretty simple to follow:

With shields you have a 'penetration' factor where the Armor takes the hit. It happens when shields get weak. And when the Armor goes you have to lose Hull too. To repair you a Logi needs 3 types of healing ( Shield, Armour, and Hull ).

With Armor Tank the Shields heal themselves, albeit a lot slower. You lose a little speed compared to Sheild, fair enough; but there is an Armor Layering skill to cover that. You then lob on a huge-ass plate, and you're ready to rock. So you only need your Logi to carry Armor & Hull, which makes it easier for the Logi to be solid at healing.


Personally I'm an Armor kinda gal, but I can use shields too. On the bigger boats Shield-tanking is fairly pointless in my opinion. Shields are useful for small nippy boats. If you are just gonna sit there and lob bombs or big-blap then I never did see the point.

2p deposited.

beware this post.

There is no logi that has EVER fit all 3 types. That's mixing tanks and is bad, except this time in a way that screws everyone you know. If your logi doesn't understand tanking, THEY SHOULDN'T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WHOLE FLEET'S TANK. If I caught a logi doing it, I'd set them kos. And on top of that, hull reps are a tricky business. There are some niche things for it but again, if I caught a logi trying to hull rep outside a novelty fleet comp, I'd set them kos because their stupidity would be a danger to themselves and everyone around them.

Much of the other details while true is pretty much useless information. For example, the shield bleed through. It doesn't affect how you fit or tactics. It's not information used to decide what ship you fly or how to tank. There's a skill that reduces it, but if you're going to train that skill, you're gonna do it for what it unlocks not because of a nearly useless bonus.

Maxim 35 (modified): [Rookie advice] and friendly fire should be easier to tell apart.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#23 - 2017-01-16 14:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
And when the Armor goes you have to lose Hull too. To repair you a Logi needs 3 types of healing ( Shield, Armour, and Hull ).

With Armor Tank the Shields heal themselves, albeit a lot slower. You lose a little speed compared to Sheild, fair enough; but there is an Armor Layering skill to cover that. You then lob on a huge-ass plate, and you're ready to rock. So you only need your Logi to carry Armor & Hull, which makes it easier for the Logi to be solid at healing.
.



You are the king of strange advice. Why do you just play the game for a while and wait with the tutor stuff until you got more than some crude theories. And don't use inferno torps with a hound, that ships gets up to 75% damage bonus to nova torps.

On topic: There is shield logi or armor logi, but hardly ever hull logi. Some nice logi bros carry some hull repair drone, but in my experience armor or shield drones or some scout drone to whore on kills are far more common.

And I noticed what happened your last rant, so take this advice: Join other players, just tag along, observe and learn. If you can’t get along with anyone in command but yourself just form your own fleet, but telling vets that they are wrong/bad/unfair will take you exactly nowhere.
David Therman
CAStabouts
#24 - 2017-01-16 16:50:07 UTC
One thing with the shield vs armor conundrum is the balancing act of increasing the amount of dps (low slots) vs tackle (mids).

With PVE the npc's aren't going to be running anywhere (bar one exception I can think of) which necessitates the need for tackle mods, so a lot of people will go with ships that favour shield tanks in order to increase the raw dps that can be put out.

For PvP, it's a question of looking at the slot layout of a ship and deciding which layout would be more viable. Take for example a t1 frigate, the Punisher; it has a meagre 2 midslots both of which are needed for 2 (in my eyes) essentials of pvp, a prop mod and a tackle mod. On the other hand it has 5 low slots, meaning you can fit a very hefty tank for a frigate. In a case like this, you'll almost always want to go with an armor tank.

Most of the frigates and destroyers in this game are forced into one type of tank or the other due to their slot limitations, but as you get into bigger ships there is a greater degree of flexibility. The Thorax is a cruiser with 4 mids and 5 lows, so at first glance it might be sensible to go with an armor tank... and indeed, plated or active rep thorax's can do a solid job, seeing as they can use the mid slots to fit additional tackle/cap injector's e.t.c. However, a thorax with 2 shield extenders can use those numerous low slots to increase it's dps by a bucket load at the cost of a stasis webifier/cap injector. The consequences of this choice is that you can either overwhelm someone by breaking through their buffer first (or before they can cycle their reps), but on the other hand it can hurt if the other ship has a neut or has active reps and can tank the dps... in which case, they'll slowly whittle you down.

As you'll find with experience, every engagement is a game of rock-paper-scissors. You might stomp someone only to get crushed the very next day by the same ship, simply because the fitting was tweaked to counteract it.
mkint
#25 - 2017-01-16 17:22:31 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
Gizzie Haslack wrote:
And when the Armor goes you have to lose Hull too. To repair you a Logi needs 3 types of healing ( Shield, Armour, and Hull ).

With Armor Tank the Shields heal themselves, albeit a lot slower. You lose a little speed compared to Sheild, fair enough; but there is an Armor Layering skill to cover that. You then lob on a huge-ass plate, and you're ready to rock. So you only need your Logi to carry Armor & Hull, which makes it easier for the Logi to be solid at healing.
.



You are the king of strange advice.

Had to double check. Yup, this Gizzie person is the WORST advice giver in EVE. Probably should be reported as a troll, because ain't nobody can be that fundamentally BAD at EVE on accident. Probably worth keeping in mind for future reference because trolls gotta troll.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#26 - 2017-01-16 17:41:10 UTC
Hull repping logi? Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that.

Oh wait.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Professor Sternu Tarantoga
Queens of the Drone Age
#27 - 2017-01-17 10:24:57 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
Real men hull tank


Shield Tank
Armor Tank
Hull Tank

(Sig Tank)


Yes, Drax the Destroyer does some serious hull tanking.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#28 - 2017-01-17 11:13:25 UTC
both armor and shields are good, they both have pros and cons:

assuming a ship with equal mid and lower slots, armor tanked will have lower dps and will be slower but will have more ewar and will have better damage applications; on the other hand, shield tanked will have higher dps and will be faster but will have lower tracking/damage application and will have higher sig radius.

so your training will be according to your preference and to your corps' doctrine.

if i fly solo, most of the time i hull tank, you just need DC for the resist and bulkheads for buffer. all other slots can be dedicated to ewar, damage mods, application mods, and caps. the downside to this is there's no active tank or should i say bad, your resist will be around 60% only (but omni), and reduced cargo (but i find this insignificant)

and one more thing, shield doesn't have a mod equivalent to the EANMs of armor, so i guess that's a pro for armors too. :)

Just Add Water

rodney119
No trouble in the midst
#29 - 2017-01-18 04:26:36 UTC

Like people have already said both shield and armor have their uses in both PvP and PvE.

What I find is that depending on race, you may have more Mid or low slots and that will be the may factor on determining which way to tank.

As a general rule the following races specify the following (exceptions can be made):

AMARR: Armor
CALDARI: Shield
Gallente: Armor
Minmatar: Armor/Shield

For PVE, generally find the best fit for that ship type based on the number of available fitting slots..

PvP works differently as a lot of the mods people use occupy mid slots, e.g. Webs, Scrams, Points, MWD's and AB's, etc.

You can find a lot of support of fitting specific ships on the forums or online in general if you get stuck. If you need a fit, there's likely to be at least a dozen or more out there.

Hope this helps anyway.
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