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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Funki Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8381 - 2017-01-14 04:40:39 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Admiral Sarah Solette wrote:
Why can't we have specialized combat probes for scanning down cloaked ships? They can even scan and function slower than normal combat probes. That way the cloaky camper can't just sit in complete safety? Why would that be such a hard system to impliment? That way, the cloaky camper at least has some amount of risk instead of being completely safe.


A)This would be a fine solution if local wasn't 100% instant, reliable intel, and equally if not more devoid of risk. If you had to risk something to get intel, then it would make sense that cloaking wasn't quite so 'free' either. Cloaking and Local are equally broken mechanics that combine to make a rather level playing field.

B)If they are camping one system, move to another.

C)Have you ever been counter-dropped? It's like this - in places like Providence, you never have to worry about a counter-drop, as the residents are seldom organized enough or have the sense of unity to actually defend their space. Camping one system is extremely effective, and can shut it down. If you do the same thing to an entity that is organized and committed to their space, you will find a preponderance of bait in your camped system. Actively hunting has a bit of a lower chance of finding deliberate bait.

D)Typically you should try the activity from both sides before decrying it as broken. Have you cloaky camped?



Yes . Also quite often doing active hunting . It was so easy . They tried to bait us but its so hard . If you loose bombers you dont much care . And BO BS can get out so freaking fast . not to mention if 3-4 sins with redeemers jump in target has no cap to tackle you . If you dont kill it instantly
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#8382 - 2017-01-14 17:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Funki Ellecon wrote:

Cloacky camping . - are you guys kidding me ? why is this still alowed . one person with few accounts can camp whole aliance for months without any effort what so ever . he need just to train Cyno to lvl 1 and cloak lvl 1 . ( and cloack lvl 5 and cyno lvl 5 is not that hard to skill neither . will take how many 3 Skill injectors ? ) . Now you will tell me that we should form defensive fleets . guard the entrances etc . Its significantly harder to keep defensive fleet over multiple systems or constelations then to let some people has sitting in BOs or Bombers somewhere in POS or NPC station .

Solutions are many for example : why Cloak is not taking cap ( stopped cap regen when cloacked ) Overheating the module - so after some time module would need to be repaired . Which would still alow some form of camping . but people would need to made effort not just make safe cloak and sit go sleep etc. Mining , you need to switch roids compress ore , dich ore in containers . Ratting or missions you have to warp arround target rats shoot . everything requires some kind of effort exept this . You sit in sistem on your laptop for example doing nothing . time to time press directionscan and if see something warp to it light cyno kill it and resume again offline camp .


It takes no effort to gate camp in lowsec or nullsec either. People can just sit at gates camping for hours, picking their noses, watching youtube videos, eating pizza, whatever.

You'll say "but you can never kill anyone if you never expend effort." Correct. And the cloaky camper you describe can never kill anyone if he never expends effort too.

If you want something done about cloaky campers to make your life much easier, I want something done about gate campers and lots of other types to make my life easier too.
Funki Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8383 - 2017-01-14 19:29:27 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Funki Ellecon wrote:

Cloacky camping . - are you guys kidding me ? why is this still alowed . one person with few accounts can camp whole aliance for months without any effort what so ever . he need just to train Cyno to lvl 1 and cloak lvl 1 . ( and cloack lvl 5 and cyno lvl 5 is not that hard to skill neither . will take how many 3 Skill injectors ? ) . Now you will tell me that we should form defensive fleets . guard the entrances etc . Its significantly harder to keep defensive fleet over multiple systems or constelations then to let some people has sitting in BOs or Bombers somewhere in POS or NPC station .

Solutions are many for example : why Cloak is not taking cap ( stopped cap regen when cloacked ) Overheating the module - so after some time module would need to be repaired . Which would still alow some form of camping . but people would need to made effort not just make safe cloak and sit go sleep etc. Mining , you need to switch roids compress ore , dich ore in containers . Ratting or missions you have to warp arround target rats shoot . everything requires some kind of effort exept this . You sit in sistem on your laptop for example doing nothing . time to time press directionscan and if see something warp to it light cyno kill it and resume again offline camp .


It takes no effort to gate camp in lowsec or nullsec either. People can just sit at gates camping for hours, picking their noses, watching youtube videos, eating pizza, whatever.

You'll say "but you can never kill anyone if you never expend effort." Correct. And the cloaky camper you describe can never kill anyone if he never expends effort too.

If you want something done about cloaky campers to make your life much easier, I want something done about gate campers and lots of other types to make my life easier too.


Gate camps are targeted reported and ussually if some PvP entinty in the area goign to dispatch them . They cant leave their computer and go to work/school . And you have no way of knowing how many people they got or what do you need to counter . Gate camps you can just scout it prep for it and thats it . To scout who actually will drop you would mean guard about 40 systems arround your own to see where from they will jump
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8384 - 2017-01-14 20:38:21 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Funki Ellecon wrote:

Cloacky camping . - are you guys kidding me ? why is this still alowed . one person with few accounts can camp whole aliance for months without any effort what so ever . he need just to train Cyno to lvl 1 and cloak lvl 1 . ( and cloack lvl 5 and cyno lvl 5 is not that hard to skill neither . will take how many 3 Skill injectors ? ) . Now you will tell me that we should form defensive fleets . guard the entrances etc . Its significantly harder to keep defensive fleet over multiple systems or constelations then to let some people has sitting in BOs or Bombers somewhere in POS or NPC station .

Solutions are many for example : why Cloak is not taking cap ( stopped cap regen when cloacked ) Overheating the module - so after some time module would need to be repaired . Which would still alow some form of camping . but people would need to made effort not just make safe cloak and sit go sleep etc. Mining , you need to switch roids compress ore , dich ore in containers . Ratting or missions you have to warp arround target rats shoot . everything requires some kind of effort exept this . You sit in sistem on your laptop for example doing nothing . time to time press directionscan and if see something warp to it light cyno kill it and resume again offline camp .


It takes no effort to gate camp in lowsec or nullsec either. People can just sit at gates camping for hours, picking their noses, watching youtube videos, eating pizza, whatever.

You'll say "but you can never kill anyone if you never expend effort." Correct. And the cloaky camper you describe can never kill anyone if he never expends effort too.

If you want something done about cloaky campers to make your life much easier, I want something done about gate campers and lots of other types to make my life easier too.


To be fair, the solution to a gate camp is a bigger/better gang. The ideal is a brick tanked cyno ship with some points. Jump into the camp and let them engage you then tackle a few of them and light the cyno. If a ship jumps in that is a BC in gate camps I'm in I always expect a hot drop. Doesn't always happen, but it is common enough for me to be ready to GTFO if I can.

The solution to AFK cloakers is not a direct counter. Just as local and intel channels are not a direct counter to a roaming gang. The are indirect counters and that is part of the game. One must always keep in mind that this game is about emergence and spontaneous order. Sometimes the strategies players use will be direct (shoot them in the face) others will be indirect (use a JF to get around gankers in Uedama or to move high value cargo). This notion that there always has to be a hard counter provided by CCP is literally antithetical to the core nature of the game.

CCP's current apparent strategy for finally addressing cloaky camping is going to disrupt the status quo but in a way that is more in line with the nature of the game. Local is gone as an intel source, and now a structure is introduced to allow for intel, but with choices...which come with trade offs. At the same time the safety of cloaks is reduced and AFK cloaking is no longer a viable strategy. The new strategies that will emerge from this change seem to hold out some hope for more interesting game play than the current process (log in and cloak at a safe and go AFK/see the AFK cloaker in local and either log off or JC to HS to run level 4s).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8385 - 2017-01-15 06:52:16 UTC
Funki Ellecon wrote:


Gate camps are targeted reported and ussually if some PvP entinty in the area goign to dispatch them. They cant leave their computer and go to work/school . And you have no way of knowing how many people they got or what do you need to counter . Gate camps you can just scout it prep for it and thats it . To scout who actually will drop you would mean guard about 40 systems arround your own to see where from they will jump


You can scout an AFK cloaker too. You have access to one of the largest intel systems in EVE, you can see what the AFK cloaker fly's, how they normally fit, who they fly with and what time they tend to be active. You are also part of an organisation that enjoys dumping supers on solo bombers. You also have a massive network of citadels, stations and POS so getting safe is super easy for you. Your ships are now set up in such a way that often you cant even catch them and if you do a titan host is a click of the button away.

Now you want to take away the only option for operating behind your lines.
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Venture
#8386 - 2017-01-15 13:06:52 UTC
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8387 - 2017-01-15 13:15:19 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?

Wormholer for life.
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Venture
#8388 - 2017-01-15 15:56:56 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?


If you don't like intel in nullsec, go to wormholes. If you want to afk in null, you should have some risk that comes with that, being afk risk free in enemy space is dumb.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#8389 - 2017-01-15 16:02:56 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?


If you don't like intel in nullsec, go to wormholes. If you want to afk in null, you should have some risk that comes with that, being afk risk free in enemy space is dumb.

AFK cloaking is a symptom of the real problem which is zero effort intel in the form of local chat. Remove local and afk cloaking will be gone too.

But we both know you can't have that, can you? Can't deal with that risk of someone actually being there. I'm tempted to make afk cloaky alts just to mess with you.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Venture
#8390 - 2017-01-15 16:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlynn Askyra
Linus Gorp wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?


If you don't like intel in nullsec, go to wormholes. If you want to afk in null, you should have some risk that comes with that, being afk risk free in enemy space is dumb.

AFK cloaking is a symptom of the real problem which is zero effort intel in the form of local chat. Remove local and afk cloaking will be gone too.

But we both know you can't have that, can you? Can't deal with that risk of someone actually being there. I'm tempted to make afk cloaky alts just to mess with you.


So you're saying it's not ok for me to play risk free but it's ok for a cloaky camper to play risk free? You're a hypocrite. Plus I don't even ask to play risk free, I just want campers to have a risk attached with camping and actually PLAY THE GAME...and for some reason you can't handle that. It's you who has no balls, not me.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#8391 - 2017-01-15 16:24:58 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
So you're saying it's not ok for me to play risk free but it's ok for a cloaky camper to play risk free? You're a hypocrite. Plus I don't even ask to play risk free, I just want campers to have a risk attached with camping and actually PLAY THE GAME...and for some reason you can't handle that. It's you who has no balls, not me.

The camper is only free of risk as long as he's cloaked. He also can't harm anyone while he's cloaked.

Show me on the doll where the afk person has telepathically touched you.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8392 - 2017-01-15 18:24:39 UTC
Funki Ellecon wrote:
Yes i did . Was living in C5 for about 4 months . Was doing some Dread ratting . Never felt safer to be honest . WH space is pretty much dead . was living out of POS .


dread ratting...so no PvP? that's very different things, and it's only C5-C6s that are broken, for very different reasons than here. PvP out of a C2-C4 and get back to me.

Putting a limit on cloaking will just keep ships out of space. Less targets, more safety for those PvE-ers who make content for everyone else. Why would I support that?
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Venture
#8393 - 2017-01-15 18:54:09 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Funki Ellecon wrote:
Yes i did . Was living in C5 for about 4 months . Was doing some Dread ratting . Never felt safer to be honest . WH space is pretty much dead . was living out of POS .


dread ratting...so no PvP? that's very different things, and it's only C5-C6s that are broken, for very different reasons than here. PvP out of a C2-C4 and get back to me.

Putting a limit on cloaking will just keep ships out of space. Less targets, more safety for those PvE-ers who make content for everyone else. Why would I support that?


Because you should be playing the game if you want to make an impact, not working or sleeping.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8394 - 2017-01-15 20:35:32 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


There should be some system in place for players to remove or damage the local (intelligence system) used in NS. You should not have an intel system that is invulnerable to attack. The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and causes much disruption for zero effort by the players using local. Nothing in this came should be zero effort.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8395 - 2017-01-15 20:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Because you should be playing the game if you want to make an impact, not working or sleeping.


No one AFK cloaked player makes an impact, they aren't at the keyboard. They can't do anything.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8396 - 2017-01-15 20:47:34 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?


If you don't like intel in nullsec, go to wormholes. If you want to afk in null, you should have some risk that comes with that, being afk risk free in enemy space is dumb.

AFK cloaking is a symptom of the real problem which is zero effort intel in the form of local chat. Remove local and afk cloaking will be gone too.

But we both know you can't have that, can you? Can't deal with that risk of someone actually being there. I'm tempted to make afk cloaky alts just to mess with you.


So you're saying it's not ok for me to play risk free but it's ok for a cloaky camper to play risk free? You're a hypocrite. Plus I don't even ask to play risk free, I just want campers to have a risk attached with camping and actually PLAY THE GAME...and for some reason you can't handle that. It's you who has no balls, not me.


The risk free nature of AFK cloaking implies there is no risk to you. The problem is that you do not know if the person is AFK or not. Further you make no effort to learn if the person is AFK or not. Consider this thought experiment.

I log in and see a cloaky camper. I want to get an idea of the likelihood he is there. So I get in an epithal and start zipping around the system "pretending" to do PI. I also start going to nearby systems as well through the gates. I am in a very squishy target. And my going through the gates makes me very vulnerable. After doing this a number of times and eliciting no response I would conclude....he is indeed AFK or so paranoid he is little to no threat. After all, if I undock 3 alts in ishtars and start ratting he sure as Hell won't engage if he was ignoring a freaking epithal.

Also look at the kill board. If the kills are predominantly in a TZ outside of the one you are in...then that also indicates a higher probability of the guy being AFK. Also, look up his alliance/corp. They'll often pass along information such as "We are a German corp...etc., etc., etc." If you are in the Mountain TZ in the US your prime playing hours are not going to have much overlap.

Basically, AFK cloaking is one of the ways to disrupt the invulnerable and perfect nature of local which functions as the primary source of intel in NS.

And yes, you want to remove AFK cloakers to reduce the risk and uncertainty you face. That much is clear.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8397 - 2017-01-15 20:49:16 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Funki Ellecon wrote:
Yes i did . Was living in C5 for about 4 months . Was doing some Dread ratting . Never felt safer to be honest . WH space is pretty much dead . was living out of POS .


dread ratting...so no PvP? that's very different things, and it's only C5-C6s that are broken, for very different reasons than here. PvP out of a C2-C4 and get back to me.

Putting a limit on cloaking will just keep ships out of space. Less targets, more safety for those PvE-ers who make content for everyone else. Why would I support that?


Because you should be playing the game if you want to make an impact, not working or sleeping.


Really? So what about market orders? Why should some rich dude get to make money while he is AFK? Or get lots of modules, ships, and other resources while he is sleeping or at work?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8398 - 2017-01-16 04:54:20 UTC
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
There needs to be some method of detection of cloakers who sit in the same spot afk all day. If you want to camp a system you should be made to be actively camping it, not just leaving your computer on and going to work.

The problem is how non-interactive this situation is for all parties and It causes far too much disruption for zero effort by the cloaker. Nothing in this game should be zero effort.


Does that include intel in nullsec?


If you don't like intel in nullsec, go to wormholes. If you want to afk in null, you should have some risk that comes with that, being afk risk free in enemy space is dumb.

AFK cloaking is a symptom of the real problem which is zero effort intel in the form of local chat. Remove local and afk cloaking will be gone too.

But we both know you can't have that, can you? Can't deal with that risk of someone actually being there. I'm tempted to make afk cloaky alts just to mess with you.


So you're saying it's not ok for me to play risk free but it's ok for a cloaky camper to play risk free? You're a hypocrite. Plus I don't even ask to play risk free, I just want campers to have a risk attached with camping and actually PLAY THE GAME...and for some reason you can't handle that. It's you who has no balls, not me.


They have a bit more risk than the people docked in system.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8399 - 2017-01-16 12:05:19 UTC
This thread is the best, makes me smile every time I read it. Though reading the last few posts I guess it will be locked for a bit again.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8400 - 2017-01-16 15:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
Quote:
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