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[GalFed] Villore Assembly: Public Health in Gamma and Delta Cities

Author
Ameriya
Doomheim
#41 - 2016-12-07 15:44:23 UTC
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!
Templar Thal Vadam
Dark Sefrim Six
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2016-12-07 16:35:31 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!



I'm sure you can understand our confusion.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-12-07 20:20:24 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!

Actually human sacrifice looked most acceptable among other options... well, together with alcohol, I presume. Alcohol is still somewhat... acceptable, even if not professional.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#44 - 2016-12-07 20:26:41 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!

Actually human sacrifice looked most acceptable among other options... well, together with alcohol, I presume. Alcohol is still somewhat... acceptable, even if not professional.


Well there you have it.

Human sacrifice, acceptable
Alcohol consumption, somewhat acceptable, but unprofessional.
Drug use, kinky sex, UNACCEPTABLE.

Down With This Sort Of Thing.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#45 - 2016-12-07 20:38:54 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!

Actually human sacrifice looked most acceptable among other options... well, together with alcohol, I presume. Alcohol is still somewhat... acceptable, even if not professional.


Well there you have it.

Human sacrifice, acceptable
Alcohol consumption, somewhat acceptable, but unprofessional.
Drug use, kinky sex, UNACCEPTABLE.

Down With This Sort Of Thing.

Good thing we have Kimmy to act as our moral guide.... makes it easier to ignore. I'll bring the lotions and whips!

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#46 - 2016-12-07 20:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Diana Kim wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!

Actually human sacrifice looked most acceptable among other options... well, together with alcohol, I presume. Alcohol is still somewhat... acceptable, even if not professional.

Valerie Valate wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Of course my New Years Orgy will not have actual human sacrifice!

Actually human sacrifice looked most acceptable among other options... well, together with alcohol, I presume. Alcohol is still somewhat... acceptable, even if not professional.


Well there you have it.

Human sacrifice, acceptable
Alcohol consumption, somewhat acceptable, but unprofessional.
Drug use, kinky sex, UNACCEPTABLE.

Down With This Sort Of Thing.


Great. I am so glad you said that. Now everyone can see how lack of kinky sex warps human minds.
Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2016-12-07 23:16:53 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Well, that just lowered my opinion of Minmatar medicine.


The Minmatar are never the leaders of medicine. You will be surprised to hear that in some places 'medicine' means 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot'.

Thankfully not as common as they used to be.

Other than that, the actual medical professionals are still all about getting down and dirty because, well, the budget isn't exactly bountiful. No cellular regens. MRIs exist side by side with X-Rays for redundancy reasons. Scalpels and anaesthetics are still commonly used. TCMCs? Suggest that to the staff and expect to be strapped to the operating table yourself. Nanomedical patches? That's a pretty recent thing and only shows up in the core worlds. Border worlds still use needles and alcohol swabs. What we do have in sufficient quantities are AIMEDs, because the factories do manufacture these in mass quantities.

I was always a fan of the "Scorch the wound closed with a hot Iron and put a bandage and some vodka on it till we can clear airspace for medi-vac." Approach.

I remember using a nova knife
Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2016-12-07 23:18:52 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Well, that just lowered my opinion of Minmatar medicine.


The Minmatar are never the leaders of medicine. You will be surprised to hear that in some places 'medicine' means 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot'.

Thankfully not as common as they used to be.

Other than that, the actual medical professionals are still all about getting down and dirty because, well, the budget isn't exactly bountiful. No cellular regens. MRIs exist side by side with X-Rays for redundancy reasons. Scalpels and anaesthetics are still commonly used. TCMCs? Suggest that to the staff and expect to be strapped to the operating table yourself. Nanomedical patches? That's a pretty recent thing and only shows up in the core worlds. Border worlds still use needles and alcohol swabs. What we do have in sufficient quantities are AIMEDs, because the factories do manufacture these in mass quantities.

I was always a fan of the "Scorch the wound closed with a hot Iron and put a bandage and some vodka on it till we can clear airspace for medi-vac." Approach.


Have I mentioned I once had to amputate a squadmate's limb with an E-Tool?

Nova knife does that too
Sei Orilia Ortek
Kirjuun Heiian
#49 - 2017-01-12 07:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sei Orilia Ortek
With Immortal Clone Soldiers operating all over Molden Heath, alongside their Warbarges, Starbases and support staff/facilities for the past few years it would be extremely hard to imagine the level of medical care there being "primative". There was an extremely strong incentive for Capsuleers and Immortal Clone Soldiers to form alliances in order to set up starbases with significant production advantages, unseen even in null-sec until the recent release of Citadels and Engineering complexes.

The average Warbarge commanded by and Immortal Clone Soldier carried 30+ combat clones, all of their vehicles and a few spare Mobile Command Centers in addition to crew compliments of 750-1000 operational staff and 4000-8000 infantry (that weren't directly used in ICS vs ICS ground conflicts - but assisted in occupance of molden heath and various faction warfare zones); They were capital class ships in their own rights, roughly half the volume of the average freighter despite design documents for Warbarges being unavailable.

I can in fact speak to the *fact* that ICS corporations that held space on Molden Health ground frequently set up advanced cloning facilities specifically for combat clones to control territory; and each cloning facility in a district could put out 20+ combat capable clones a day (often with multiple cloning facilities per district, putting out a maximum of 100 clones per district). Immortal Clone Soldiers on average paid more than a capsuleer pays for well fit cruiser for a military grade clone.

To even suggest that Molden Heath is "primitive" in terms of medical technology when literal thousands of military grade ICS combat clones were pumped out daily is farcical.
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#50 - 2017-01-12 08:11:38 UTC
What mercenary military has and what civilians have is not the same.
Sei Orilia Ortek
Kirjuun Heiian
#51 - 2017-01-12 08:49:23 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
What mercenary military has and what civilians have is not the same.


While generally true, there was a significant investment of wealth there by ICS's and Capsuleers. Remember the discrepency of isk between "immortals" and baseliners.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#52 - 2017-01-12 11:23:50 UTC
I think there's a couple of points to be made here about mill spec clones and war barges being considered general medical technology. One, first and foremost, they're not. They simply aren't. Mil spec bodies have absolutely zero use as anything but a short lived combat platform or other expendable asset of similar application by their very design, which emphasizes performance over all other concerns, including lifespan. The very equipment we use is lethal to us, as is the makeup of the clone itself, in reference to timeframes outside of a few hours to days. You can't really use them as much else.

Second, the associated facilities are carried on the war barges and MCC's. They're not part of the local infrastructure, or available for use by local entities. For the most part, a clone soldier outfit stocks up on what they need in bulk from capsuleer markets, with the ISK changing hands between such. The fraction that goes into tax doesn't amount to much versus a day in Jita or the like, really, and any stimulus felt is likely eaten up by the result of small armies of two and a half meter juggernaut's just in terms of collateral damage.

In short, we don't bring a whole lot of good with us in our basic form.

Also, you might wanna compare cruiser prices... Those things are ruddy EXPENSIVE by our standards. 20 odd million for a decent basic one, and 250 million plus for the high end examples. I've NEVER seen kit that expensive on my end.
Sei Orilia Ortek
Kirjuun Heiian
#53 - 2017-01-12 12:16:57 UTC
The biomass processing and cloning facilities are part of the district infrastructure in Molden heath, set up by ICS', much like Capsuleers can buy and deploy command centers for various types of planets without even a thought to the cost of hiring baseliners to manage it.

There is some trickle-down to the baseliners... even with a lot of collateral damage.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2017-01-12 12:37:04 UTC
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Well, that just lowered my opinion of Minmatar medicine.


The Minmatar are never the leaders of medicine. You will be surprised to hear that in some places 'medicine' means 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot'.

Thankfully not as common as they used to be.

Other than that, the actual medical professionals are still all about getting down and dirty because, well, the budget isn't exactly bountiful. No cellular regens. MRIs exist side by side with X-Rays for redundancy reasons. Scalpels and anaesthetics are still commonly used. TCMCs? Suggest that to the staff and expect to be strapped to the operating table yourself. Nanomedical patches? That's a pretty recent thing and only shows up in the core worlds. Border worlds still use needles and alcohol swabs. What we do have in sufficient quantities are AIMEDs, because the factories do manufacture these in mass quantities.

I was always a fan of the "Scorch the wound closed with a hot Iron and put a bandage and some vodka on it till we can clear airspace for medi-vac." Approach.


Have I mentioned I once had to amputate a squadmate's limb with an E-Tool?

Nova knife does that too


Nova knives did not exist back when I was a cadet. Also, you can't dig a trench with a nova knife, or even use the knife as a stool.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#55 - 2017-01-12 13:05:21 UTC
Sei Orilia Ortek wrote:
The biomass processing and cloning facilities are part of the district infrastructure in Molden heath, set up by ICS', much like Capsuleers can buy and deploy command centers for various types of planets without even a thought to the cost of hiring baseliners to manage it.

There is some trickle-down to the baseliners... even with a lot of collateral damage.

That's a new one on me. Still doesn't make the clones any more useful in a medical capacity, I fear, if you're churning out the titanium boned combat grade examples. Unless you've got actual medical clone facilities. In which case, they would be a lot more useful in the capacity you're talking about, since you can get useful spare parts from them, albeit at a high cost that either you or the local economy would have to absorb.

That being the case, I'm still not convinced that the trickle down, as you put it, would cover the damages, AND operating costs to make medical cloning somehow available to the common man, since most of the money goes right back into a war economy several orders of magnitude smaller than what cappies have access to, in order to continue earning said money. Not to mention, the big, well paying wars are done for the time being, so revenue itself is an issue, unless you've got a bunch of donors with very loose purse strings.

If it's all the former, as described, you're looking at a perpetual war for the sake of sustaining the system that keeps said war going, and people employed therein. If the latter, and you've got some philanthropists on your side, Maker love em, and good luck to you.
Sei Orilia Ortek
Kirjuun Heiian
#56 - 2017-01-12 13:46:08 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:

You're looking at a perpetual war for the sake of sustaining the system that keeps said war going, and people employed therein.


That was seemingly the intent of the initial Templars that Jamyl released - the ability to wage war perpetually, with no loss of "skilled" soldiers, the ability to send your best on literal suicide missions and have them return. A glorious reclaiming for the Amarr Empire. We are fortunate that other empires received a means to combat the Templars.

Still, I'm only speaking about Molden Heath and to a much lesser extent the factional warfare zones that ICS' took part in, the cloning and biomass processing facilities that they had access to in those areas (not just the ones bound to their warbarges) aren't incapable of being adapted to other purposes, even if their most used purpose was directed by ICS for their own interests or the Empires in the defense of planets. Their medical technology is far from primitive; it's just incredibly out of reach from most of the people.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#57 - 2017-01-12 14:14:05 UTC
Sei Orilia Ortek wrote:
Agiri Falken wrote:

You're looking at a perpetual war for the sake of sustaining the system that keeps said war going, and people employed therein.


That was seemingly the intent of the initial Templars that Jamyl released - the ability to wage war perpetually, with no loss of "skilled" soldiers, the ability to send your best on literal suicide missions and have them return. A glorious reclaiming for the Amarr Empire. We are fortunate that other empires received a means to combat the Templars.

Still, I'm only speaking about Molden Heath and to a much lesser extent the factional warfare zones that ICS' took part in, the cloning and biomass processing facilities that they had access to in those areas (not just the ones bound to their warbarges) aren't incapable of being adapted to other purposes, even if their most used purpose was directed by ICS for their own interests or the Empires in the defense of planets. Their medical technology is far from primitive; it's just incredibly out of reach from most of the people.

I think we're on the same page, in the end. And yeah, there really is but one intent behind an immortal soldier, which goes hand in hand with the adage about old soldiers never dying. Since you seem to understand the intent behind my playing devil's advocate, I'll say no more on the matter, and wish you luck. Anvatkaa.
Quartz Jori
Jori's Fullerites and Salvage Inc.
#58 - 2017-01-13 04:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartz Jori
The more medically astute will have to excuse my ignorance, as I grew up in the ass-end of Olfiem on a salvaging hab, so I know more about taking engines apart than I'll ever know about medicine, but what's the issue with X-Ray machines? We had one on board the hab which served us pretty well.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2017-01-13 04:23:52 UTC
Quartz Jori wrote:
The more medically astute will have to excuse my ignorance, as I grew up in the ass-end of Olfiem on a salvaging hab, so I know more about taking engines apart than I'll ever know about medicine, but what's the issue with X-Ray machines? We had one on board the hab which served us pretty well.


X-Ray machines are fine. It's just that there's now a safer alternative that does not require the use of radioactive material called the MRI.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#60 - 2017-01-13 04:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
And, you know, that magnetic resonance imaging is as mature and established a technology as x-ray plate-reading with none of the potentially harmful side effects. MRIs have also been just as portable for hundreds of years, and are actually easier and cheaper to maintain and manufacture given superconductive materials.

Honestly, why someone would opt for the potentially dangerous, less common, more expensive, harder to maintain option just because it's 'lower tech' boggles my mind. It's like insisting all your datafeeds get packaged and presented to you once a day on reconstituted wood pulp marked up with plant extracts.