Intergalactic Summit

Examples of what being the case, Miz? Of diplomacy being effective as a means of solving problems? Of voices of reason weakening the resolve of oppressors so that the stick is seen for what it is instead of mindless savagery? Spirits below, woman, you've GalNet. Do your own research.

That is Arrendis playing word games. The "look it up yourself" means oops I'm all out.

Arrendis can formulate really good arguments, it is a skill she has developed and refined, but she twists it into a writhing mess of distractions when she is losing the discussion on merit.

The Minmatar people threw off the yoke of slavery for a good percentage of their population, regained their home worlds plus added new ones they took by force when armed with weapons that equaled the slavery cultist technology. Not opinion historical fact.

When asked to think how the Minmatar would do with weapons that were superior to what the slavery cultist currently wield Arrendis could not even imagine success.


This is one of the worse effects of racism, self loathing which all too often manifests itself in the forms of self doubt and a decrease in self confidence.

The Minmatar who are known far and wide for amazing engineering skills and with an added ability to keep a secret will fall into disarray and be defeated in an arms race that they have a substantial head start in.

Fortunately the Elders do not have the attitude that Arrendis is wrapped in a fetal ball around or the Elder Fleet would never have been built in total secret!

That must have been one (1) really skilled builder to get that fleet all built all by herself with out word slipping out. Because there is no secret held securely by more than one person right? lol

Sadly Arrendis suffers from believing she and collectively we are somehow lesser when history is full of facts that prove absolutely the opposite, with the exception of the Caldari no one else comes close to doing more with less resources than the Minmatar and they are in second place.

Arrendis is flat out wrong, Minmatar can achieve whatever other people can and have outdone most others in head to head confrontations on equal footing. Again not opinion historical fact.

I hope I can somehow get Arrendis to uncurl from her mental fetal position and look in the mirror and see a winner an equal to any challenge the Cluster can throw at her or her people. I'll keep jabbing until she can see more then a goon looking back at her in the mirror. Saving our people means more then just breaking the physical chains the mental chains are far more difficult to smash but we Minmatar are persistent and patient even Arrendis will one day be completely freed.

Miz: Capsuleers have existed for how long? You're looking at an interval that's far too short to be subjected to its own statistical analysis. Additionally, we are not the only potential sticks. As you yourself have demonstrated (and more than once nearly rattled my carrier to pieces), as individuals, we are potent PR weapons for rallying public opinion.

Ronin: Miz knows me far better than you do, so really, you trying to tell her anything about the way I discuss issues is really kinda hilarious.

As for racism: you realize that situation would be exactly the same regardless of which of the four empires you were using your 'we have the blueprints, but we're still a small organization' hypertech against, right? There's nothing specific to the Amarr that makes them different from anyone else in how your organization would be repulsed and infiltrated, and your technological advantage quickly nullified.

The very fact that you can't see that any of the empires would be able to do this, and so think that just because I pointed out that the Amarr have extensive R&D facilities somehow implies the others don't... that's telling.

Next, the Elder Fleet was built out in Thukker space. Just because one large-scale fabrication project was conducted in an isolated backwater before being used doesn't mean that the organization was impenetrable or completely secure. It simply means nobody had any reason to try to compromise it before their activities were known about.

So, you're equating a covert operation remaining secret until unveiled, and a covert operation remaining inviolate while openly conducting operations. These are vastly, vastly different things.

At no point have I said the Matari cannot achieve what others have. If anything, Ronin, you seem to be the one insisting we are fundamentally different from every other group of humans ever. The Amarr tried to break us, and failed—even if some of us are still in chains, and they continue their efforts. The Gallente attempted to force Caldari subjugation, and failed. But you seem to think we can force the Amarr to change, ignoring the fact that those attempts throughout history have only ever bred resistance.

And when I, repeatedly now, have asked you to explain just how you'll be effective when nobody else has, you insist you will, but you can't offer any actual methods or specifics, hinging your entire argument on 'we'll magically get SUPERWEAPONS!' and then running to personal attack and evasion.

So where are you specifics? How exactly will you be successful without suddenly and inexplicably acquiring a massive cache of Jovian technology?

So you admit to being incapable of participating in a thought exercise you do not originate?

Where did I state that the Coalition between the Freedom Fighters and the "Drifters" would be announced prior to be utilized?

Where did I say the Drifter Battleship designs would be announced prior to them showing up to systematically destroy every Titan flying in Imperial space?

You divert from what is said to try and create a subset of points you think you can win. Not working this time. Embrace the thought exercise or admit you will not because you will be unable to win on the merit of your positions.

Please go back read what I offered as the thought exercises and respond with specifics to those points. I think your knowledge would be worth listening to if you really tried to win on merit instead of evasion.

No, I participated in your thought experiment. You didn't like how it would play out. Nor, I should note, did you offer any rebuttal of that scenario with an alternate scenario of your own except 'WE WIN!!!!' which, of course, offers no specifics, no analysis, and no details other than putting your fingers in your ears and loudly exclaiming 'lalalalalalalala'.



If you'll look back at what I said, I acknowledged that you'll have early success. It will be once you begin operation that you will be infiltrated. And if you think you'll 'systematically destroy every titan flying in Imperial space', you're mad, and clearly have never actually seen supercapital forces in action.

Here's what's changed since Safizon:
1) Force Auxiliaries. These ships provide considerable recovery ability and staying power, exceeding the triage capabilities of their multi-role predecessors.
2) Improved defensive abilities. A modern Avatar, even showing the slavish devotion to Imperial-produced modules that Seraph did, will survive far more than Seraph could have.
3) Projected EWAR effects. One of the major reasons the destruction of Seraph seemed so impressive was that the Drifter forces simply warped off afterwards. They just left, and nobody had time to lock and point them. With current supercarrier capabilities to project warp disruption over a considerable area-of-effect without locking a target, this easy escape is no longer guaranteed.

This means that rather than an unstoppable hit-and-run, you'll be a hit-and-hit-back-harder.

Why do I say 'harder'? Because we've seen what it takes to kill a Drifter battleship. It's not that much. The real trick is surviving the doomsday when it fires. But in your scenario, you're opening with the DD. Which means you don't have it. Not for a considerable amount of recharge time. So you're going to start losing these advanced ships more or less as soon as it becomes apparent that you're attempting some 'systemic' use of them. How quickly can you replace them in your thought experiment? Are you proposiing that you can replace hypertechnology vessels as quickly as you could replace a Typhoon? How many of them will you build before using them? How many titans and supercarriers do you think the Empire has? Remember the revue at Caitiz' coronation: just one detachment of the Guard had something like two dozen Aeons and a frankly ridiculous number of Force Auxiliaries.

What percentage of your operating budget do you think the loss of one strike's worth of Drifter vessels will represent? How do you propose to continue to afford these hypertech items? Do you think that percentage is more, or less than the cost of a titan?

Before you answer that, consider the rate at which supercapitals are currently being built all across null, in facilities that are not nearly as expansive as the shipyards of any of the empires.

Your thought experiment hinges your success on the acquisition of technology in advance of your enemy's, and on the retention of that technological advantage. To do that, you'd need to not only have the blueprints, to not only be able to follow the assembly instructions, but also to reverse-engineer the science that makes that technology work. Which, as soon as you're compromised, you can be assured the Empire will be doing as well. And here's the problem with that:

They have more brains than your band of freedom fighters.

I don't mean they're smarter. I mean they literally have a larger number of brains to put to work on the problem. Many of those brains will be Minmatar, either slaves, working to improve their lot in life, or emancipated citizens of the Empire who honestly and sincerely believe in the lies of 'uplift' that they've been fed for generations.

At the same time, your organization will have been compromised. Which means they'll know where you are. Have you ever noticed how we never see that Sansha wormhole generator you're basing your experiment on? That's because it doesn't travel. It probably can't travel without a hell of a lot of effort—doing what it's doing requires the kind of power output you usually find in a very specific class of fusion reactors called 'stars'.

So they'll know where your immobile base is. They'll know where your production centers—which will have to be specialized, because let's face it, you don't built a Typhoon with a hammer and anvil, so those won't be easily replaced, either. And they'll come for you. The very thing you are reliant upon for your mobility will be an anchor you cannot afford to cut loose.

And so, with less resources, on the run, and an enemy who can maintain decentralized and massively-redundant R&D programs, you'll need to stay ahead of them, technologically and industrially.

Do you see that happening?



You mean like that? I didn't think I needed to spell out exactly how blatantly boned your 'experiment' was.

Well, you haven't been paying attention.

They didn't 'jump in, destroy the Titan, and jump out'. They warped in, destroyed the titan, and warped out. And a modern Warp Disruption Burst Generator—which did not exist then, so hey, look! new tech's been rolled out!—means the Aeons on-grid wouldn't even need to target the Drifters before beginning area-effect warp-denial in response. Having fired their doomsdays already, the Drifters would be shredded, much the same way ARC and SERAPH regularly kill them—without taking losses, generally.



You've missed your window. You don't have the year. Your plan's operational potential has already been degraded by the technological and organizational response to Jamyl's assassination. Titans don't operate alone. Their defensive capabilities have improved. The counter-punch available to their support ships has improved. You are horribly, horribly ignorant of the matters of which you purport to be conducting a 'thought experiment'.



As someone involved in the production of both? It's not as big as you think.



I think if you believe you'd be able to destroy 30% of the titan fleet of any of the empires with what you're proposing, you're a fool.



We know that the Drifters had the tech to alpha strike an Imperial titan and escape unscathed. You have apparently not kept up with developments in supercapital and capital ship technology. The 'new technology' you do not know of, we have been fighting with for more than six months now.

At least you made an attempt with this response.

Please be specific about how we would be infiltrated and how long it would take?

One hour, one week, one year? You are trying to divert and create a different subset you think you might win, sorry fail.

However, just to lay this out for you, Ronin:

Maybe it'll take a month. Maybe it'll take six months. You'll start losing engagements within the first two weeks, if not the first three days.

And once that happens, you'll have people getting frustrated, and angry, and quitting. It happens, as soon as one side starts losing, people who joined up because they thought they'd be unstoppable and win all the time quit. Sometimes when they quit, they steal things. Like ships. Like anything they can get their hands on.

So you'll have to replace people. If you have to replace people, that means you'll be getting people in that you can't always vet properly. They won't be the guys you've known for years. One of them will likely be willing to sell you out for enough ISK—and the Empire's got the ISK.

Or maybe one of those guys who leaves and steals his ship decides to sell an intact Drifter battleship to the other side. Lotta money in that, too, and clearly you weren't paying him enough.

Exactly how you'll be betrayed is almost irrelevant. You will be betrayed. One of the reasons the Elder Fleet didn't suffer that problem is there really wasn't a protracted campaign. They were willing right up until the point when they got a superweapon to the face and had to fight a desperate retreat, dying every step of the way. Had there been an extended campaign? You can bet there would've been sellouts and backstabbers on both sides.

No, we've been using subcapitals, which are far easier for Drifters to kill. As you well know. The point stands, however, that small ships can fight Drifters without losses. Supercapitals, with far greater capability than they had even eighteen months ago, are even more able to do so.

And just think! You could've avoided all of this exposure as a strategic incompetent if you'd only known the right word for ammunition.

It is best to ignore her. Like Kim they don't understand anything outside what they think is right, which is everything they say and nothing anyone else says.