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Is the Alpha clone a problem?

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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#241 - 2017-01-10 09:18:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
.
You are again forging false implications.

Forging?

I see no bellows, no anvil, no fire, no coal.

This is preposterous.

Explain yourself. Demonstrate that he is forging anything at all.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#242 - 2017-01-10 09:19:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Except now you appear to be repudiating the problem of opportunity cost which, in your words, is "bothersome", but apparently not anymore.


Where?

"Appear" is not exactly a convincing argument.
You are again forging false implications.

Teckos Pech wrote:
And ignoring that there is no really good reason to do it, as has been pointed out. And not to mention there is no evidence of it happening.


Whether the reasons for doing so are good or not, is not something I have argued, either way.

As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


You seem to be making up some sort of distinction between the terms "theoretical possibility" vs. "real possibility" that the latter means some is either already happening or soon will be or something. However, I contend that these opportunity costs and the fact that people have very little reason to do as noted by Ima Wreckyou and the lack of actual evidence of it happening it is not a problem and your distinction is simply pointless.

So should the OP or anyone else be worried about Alpha's making ganking easier? No. Why not? Because as you noted trying to do so would be "bothersome" and as Ima Wreckyou noted not even necessary.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#243 - 2017-01-10 09:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
.
You are again forging false implications.

Forging?

I see no bellows, no anvil, no fire, no coal.

This is preposterous.

Explain yourself. Demonstrate that he is forging anything at all.



forge1
[fawrj, fohrj]
verb (used with object), forged, forging.

2.
to form or make, especially by concentrated effort
3.
to imitate (handwriting, a signature, etc.) fraudulently; fabricate a forgery.

In this case both definitions apply.
As in he is forming, by concentrated effort a fraudulent misrepresentation of what I have written (as if I had written it).

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#244 - 2017-01-10 09:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


No, I am pointing out you have nothing to back up your over wrought concerns. You have nothing besides a conjecture...a conjecture even your previous posts suggests is not going to be much of a problem if at all.

Edit: BTW, why do you do this.

I say, "You have no evidence."

You then reply, "Are you saying it doesn't happen at all?!?!?!!?"

Your response is a classic straw man.

Is it something pathological that leads you to immediately leap to the straw man?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#245 - 2017-01-10 09:25:54 UTC
Hmmm. Dude really I think it would be totally cool with me if alphas could have battle cruisers.

This alpha smack is weak. They are but ghosts in EvE. Unable to interact with their world 'cept to ninja loot 1/2 biul a day.

Yay Perimeter wars. Let's focus on looting is my suggestion.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Salvos Rhoska
#246 - 2017-01-10 09:25:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


No


Then there is no dispute. Your argument is quashed.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#247 - 2017-01-10 09:26:00 UTC
Oh and BTW, making an Alpha account to use in ganking...is not the issue. Nice job moving the goal posts. Your over wrought concern was using an apparent indefinite number of Alpha accounts to avoid sec status losses. Making one Alpha account to gank with is totally fine and allowed. But nice try.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wallace Trucker
State War Academy
Caldari State
#248 - 2017-01-10 09:26:22 UTC
I normally make an effort to stay out of these discussions but this one needs some reality injected.

Ok, so yes they are space pixels. But these pixels don't fly around and do things by them self. They are completely controlled by real people. We as people or controllers of space pixels make decisions based on our morals. If YOU controlling a space pixels decide to another space pixel controlled by another human being then I argue that you would also do that in real life. There are two types of people playing the game those who who's space pixels our a reflection of their self and those whose space pixels represent who they want to be. If you really want to be a person without morals or has no care about other peoples feelings...then I am concerned. In other words stop hiding behind excuses like it's just pixels or just a game. The reality is it is you.

More food for thought just because bullying isn't against the law does that make it right?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2017-01-10 09:27:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


No


Then there is no dispute.


Yep, Alphas are not a problem for ganking. Glad you totally agree with me now.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#250 - 2017-01-10 09:29:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Oh and BTW, making an Alpha account to use in ganking...is not the issue. Nice job moving the goal posts. Your over wrought concern was using an apparent indefinite number of Alpha accounts to avoid sec status losses. Making one Alpha account to gank with is totally fine and allowed. But nice try.


You claimed there is no evidence of this happening.

You then agreed that you do not claim this is not happening.

Despite the obvious hypocrisy and wishy-washy sideswitching you are displaying, the conclusion is that it is happening, and you do not dispute that it is happening.

Case closed.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2017-01-10 09:29:28 UTC
Wallace Trucker wrote:
I normally make an effort to stay out of these discussions but this one needs some reality injected.

Ok, so yes they are space pixels. But these pixels don't fly around and do things by them self. They are completely controlled by real people. We as people or controllers of space pixels make decisions based on our morals. If YOU controlling a space pixels decide to another space pixel controlled by another human being then I argue that you would also do that in real life. There are two types of people playing the game those who who's space pixels our a reflection of their self and those whose space pixels represent who they want to be. If you really want to be a person without morals or has no care about other peoples feelings...then I am concerned. In other words stop hiding behind excuses like it's just pixels or just a game. The reality is it is you.

More food for thought just because bullying isn't against the law does that make it right?




You appear to missing a word in there.

And don't be a jackass and make the argument that because one is a bad guy in a video game (that actually encourages people to be the Bad Guy™) that they are also bad people in real life. That is just a load of errant nonsense and quite despicable.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#252 - 2017-01-10 09:29:51 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
.
You are again forging false implications.

Forging?

I see no bellows, no anvil, no fire, no coal.

This is preposterous.

Explain yourself. Demonstrate that he is forging anything at all.



forge1
[fawrj, fohrj]
verb (used with object), forged, forging.

2.
to form or make, especially by concentrated effort
3.
to imitate (handwriting, a signature, etc.) fraudulently; fabricate a forgery.

In this case both definitions apply.
As in he is forming, by concentrated effort a fraudulent misrepresentation of what I have written (as if I had written it).

That doesn't demonstrate anything. I demand you prove that he forged anything at all.

Come on. So crucial to this thread.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#253 - 2017-01-10 09:30:33 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Oh and BTW, making an Alpha account to use in ganking...is not the issue. Nice job moving the goal posts. Your over wrought concern was using an apparent indefinite number of Alpha accounts to avoid sec status losses. Making one Alpha account to gank with is totally fine and allowed. But nice try.


You claimed there is no evidence of this happening.

You then agreed that you do not claim this is not happening.

Despite the obvious hypocrisy and wishy-washy sideswitching you are displaying, the conclusion is that it is happening, and you do not dispute that it is happening.

Case closed.


No, that is a lie. I said you had no evidence and your claim was 100s even 1000s of Alpha accounts.

Again, nice job trying to move the goal posts, but no luck.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#254 - 2017-01-10 09:30:53 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


No


Then there is no dispute.


Yep, Alphas are not a problem for ganking. Glad you totally agree with me now.


No, it does not say that.

It says you do not claim that Alpha alts are created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking, whereas earlier you claimed there is no evidence that they are.

Read the question and read your answer.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#255 - 2017-01-10 09:31:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, that is a lie. I said you had no evidence and your claim was 100s even 1000s of Alpha accounts.

Again, nice job trying to move the goal posts, but no luck.


I did not say that 100s or 1000s of Alpha accounts are being created by individuals.

I simply stated it is possible to do so.

You are moving the goal posts and misrepresenting what has been said, again.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#256 - 2017-01-10 09:33:58 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


As to evidence of this happening, are you trying to claim that Alpha alts have not been created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking?


No


Then there is no dispute.


Yep, Alphas are not a problem for ganking. Glad you totally agree with me now.


it does not say that.

It says that Alpha alts are created for the purpose of HS suicide ganking.


Yup. Glad we agree. Creating an Alpha alt to gank with is fine. Your concern of creating a plethora of such alts to avoid sec status loss does not appear to be happening.

Awesome, so glad we agree.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#257 - 2017-01-10 09:34:25 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The possibility of:
1) Incubating indefinite amounts of persistent 5mil SP toons, for free, is new.
2) Using those toons to avoid CCP restrictions on character recycling so as to avoid sec status repercussions, is new.
3) Trials had a 15day free period in which to accrue SP and act.
4) The Alpha system is "new", by definition.


Ok, I think I see where the problem is in this discussion and maybe we should take a step back and look what we are actually talking about.

The issue at hand was the OP's question if alpha is used for "griefing" which eventually crystallized into a question about if alpha clones are used for suicide ganking to circumvent issues with security status. On this question we can ask the following:

1) Is this possible?
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are manly concerned with this and I think you are talking the whole time only about the possibility of this not noticing that actually no one else is addressing this very point since it is ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS and there is no need to talk about it since everyone agrees that it is possible.

Also you point out in the post above that alpha is new, yes it is. Basically the same this was possible with trial but I agree that it was slightly different and that you can create any number of alpha clones which are better trained and ready to be used to suicide gank with slightly better dps than it was possible with a trial.

Do you agree that this is what you talked about? Again, I don't think anyone has an issue with the point that this is possible.

2) Is it practical
This is what anyone else was talking about and everyone with experience in the field will tell you that there are far better options than a bunch of alpha accounts. The reasons are stated in various posts and got manly ignored since you always focused back on 1) which no one was actually talking about.

3) Is it actually happening

This is an empirical question and Scorpio addressed this point with an analysis of the data from the killboard and the conclusion seams that as far as we can see there is no alpha suicide ganking epidemic and there was no trial suicide ganking epidemic.

You did not address (2) or (3) or did you? It seams like you are convinced the OP's concern can be addressed only by looking at the possibility and not at the practicability or looking at what actually happens on TQ. In my opinion looking at (1) only is absolutely not how you can answer OP's question and it is also a bad point for discussion since everyone including probably my mother is agreeing with it.

So can we close the discussion on (1) and concentrate on (2) and (3) where there is actually something to discuss?

Evil RatKid
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2017-01-10 09:35:25 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, that is a lie. I said you had no evidence and your claim was 100s even 1000s of Alpha accounts.

Again, nice job trying to move the goal posts, but no luck.


I did not say that 100s or 1000s of Alpha accounts are being created by individuals.


So you agree, there is no evidence of this happening. So again, we agree, not a problem. Yay.

Hint: Maybe you should stop selectively quoting people. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2017-01-10 13:32:11 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
The first thing an expert on self-justification does with an exact definition is to search Google for a definition that suits them better, and you're instantly involved in a stupid "dictionary war" which is a moderately effective way to derail a topic. I don't do that.


Strange, to an outside observer it looks exactly what you are doing. Just the "they know who they are" sounds a more vague definition that what others who need one usually pick.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#260 - 2017-01-10 14:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Yebo Lakatosh wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
The first thing an expert on self-justification does with an exact definition is to search Google for a definition that suits them better, and you're instantly involved in a stupid "dictionary war" which is a moderately effective way to derail a topic. I don't do that.


Strange, to an outside observer it looks exactly what you are doing. Just the "they know who they are" sounds a more vague definition that what others who need one usually pick.

I was "catching up" on this thread, which had 5 or 6 new pages added since I last looked at it, and was tempted to point out that the majority of posts are coming from people who won't read each others posts carefully, or try to simulate rational arguments by "cherry picking".

Of course this is a waste of time ... but then I found this right at the end of the thread :)

If you read the whole thread, instead of just reacting to what you think is an easy target, you'd find that I actually defined griefing step by step, spread across several posts. I do this to discourage the whole irrational "dictionary attack" approach. In my experience the better and more detailed an uncomfortable definition is, the more likely it is to induce a flurry of fallacious responses - this turns a potentially interesting discussion into a free lecture in logic to people who don't believe in it in the first place :)

I did make a pragmatic definition of sorts after a while (page 7 or 8 I think). You'll know it when you see it. Find it, quote it, make a sensible comment, and I'll respond.