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Large FW Plexes Tank

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Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#1 - 2017-01-07 04:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
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Dalts
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#2 - 2017-01-07 15:36:12 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Why is it that when I go out in a battlecruiser with 263dps, I can't break the tank on the NPC inside the large FW Plexes? Why are they so tanky? I'm sitting here, in my BATTLECRUISER and it's not able to kill me, and I'm not able to kill it. It's a waste of time. Why is it like this? I can't take my battlecruiser into medium plexes, it seems like battlecruisers are pretty much useless in FW when it comes to plexing unles s you are able to break 300dps.


260 dps is very poor dps for a Battlecruiser, some frigs can that so its about right that its not enough dps to run larges. What fit are you using?
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#3 - 2017-01-08 00:01:58 UTC
Dalts wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Why is it that when I go out in a battlecruiser with 263dps, I can't break the tank on the NPC inside the large FW Plexes? Why are they so tanky? I'm sitting here, in my BATTLECRUISER and it's not able to kill me, and I'm not able to kill it. It's a waste of time. Why is it like this? I can't take my battlecruiser into medium plexes, it seems like battlecruisers are pretty much useless in FW when it comes to plexing unles s you are able to break 300dps.


260 dps is very poor dps for a Battlecruiser, some frigs can that so its about right that its not enough dps to run larges. What fit are you using?


It was a cyclone with HAMs. Meta 4 arbalest HAM launchers. T1 missiles. 1 ballistic control unit in the low slot. 5x warrior I. Battlecruiser skill lvl V
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-01-08 00:28:15 UTC
Here's some real advice:
Go stick with a dessie until you have the proper skills to fly a cyclone. Did you just focus all your training into Minmatar BC V and ignored all your support skills and/or missile/drone skills?

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#5 - 2017-01-08 00:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Here's some real advice:
Go stick with a dessie until you have the proper skills to fly a cyclone. Did you just focus all your training into Minmatar BC V and ignored all your support skills and/or missile/drone skills?


Here's some real advice to you buddy: don't assume that I haven't trained the skills up. Stick to the newbie forum if you're going to talk condescendingly to people. I'm at 30 million SP and level 3 mastery with both the cyclone and the hurricane. I can use T2 everything on the ship, without requiring engineering rigs or fittings in the lowslots. Yes my drone skills are up to Par, I can field 5x T2 medium drones - however I use 2 sets of small drones, one set for damage, and one set for EWAR. Thank you very much.

Oh yeah, then you're probably wondering why I use meta 4 mods and T1 stuff on the ship. The answer is simple: When my cyclone blows up, the insurance covers the cost of the ship AND my fittings. All I lose out on in the 15 million isk it takes to get platinum insurance on it. I can lose literally 100 of these things and only lose 150 million isk.

From what I understand, the reason the ships in the large plexes have 300dps tanks, is to deter people from running them in stealth bombers; however, I made this thread specifically to argue that there's a problem when a person shows up in a battlecruiser and can't take the thing out, even with Meta 4 HAM's and a BCU in the low. Think about what you need to take out the NPC ships in all of the other plexes? You don't need T2 stuff or crazy amount of damage. It's only the larges where you run into these issues.
Bertok Francis
1 Royal Fleet Corps
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2017-01-08 02:27:44 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Here's some real advice:
Go stick with a dessie until you have the proper skills to fly a cyclone. Did you just focus all your training into Minmatar BC V and ignored all your support skills and/or missile/drone skills?


Here's some real advice to you buddy: don't assume that I haven't trained the skills up. Stick to the newbie forum if you're going to talk condescendingly to people. I'm at 30 million SP and level 3 mastery with both the cyclone and the hurricane. I can use T2 everything on the ship, without requiring engineering rigs or fittings in the lowslots. Yes my drone skills are up to Par, I can field 5x T2 medium drones - however I use 2 sets of small drones, one set for damage, and one set for EWAR. Thank you very much.

Oh yeah, then you're probably wondering why I use meta 4 mods and T1 stuff on the ship. The answer is simple: When my cyclone blows up, the insurance covers the cost of the ship AND my fittings. All I lose out on in the 15 million isk it takes to get platinum insurance on it. I can lose literally 100 of these things and only lose 150 million isk.

From what I understand, the reason the ships in the large plexes have 300dps tanks, is to deter people from running them in stealth bombers; however, I made this thread specifically to argue that there's a problem when a person shows up in a battlecruiser and can't take the thing out, even with Meta 4 HAM's and a BCU in the low. Think about what you need to take out the NPC ships in all of the other plexes? You don't need T2 stuff or crazy amount of damage. It's only the larges where you run into these issues.

I think he was wondering how you have sub 300 dps in a battlecruiser; I am a 1 mil SP alpha and my gnosis has 306 dps with 0 tech 2 mods and only drones 3 and surgical strike 2. With max alpha skills and tech 2 damage mods it will probably be around 350-375. This is with prototype gaus guns and normal AM ammo at ~15km.
Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-01-08 09:17:18 UTC
I expect some people to get moderated out if the tone continues.

OP, the fact that small ships can reach your DPS level is why the DPS barrier is in place, not just for stealth bombers, they can probably get more DPS anyway.

Make sure your damage type is appropriate for the npc you are shooting it may make a marginal difference at your DPS level and I am curious what is in the rest of your low slots if you only have one BCU, try three and you should be ok.

It sounds like you are out for risk averse plexing, you have mitigated your risk by going cheap which can be sensible but if you are also mitigating your risk by using nanos or stabs also then that may be the problem.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#8 - 2017-01-08 10:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Arcturus Ursidae, it's nice to get a reasonable response from somebody - instead of insulting or condescending responses like above.

In the remaining lowslots:
Missile Guidance Enchancer
Damage Control Unit
Signal Amplifier (faster lock time, harder to use target jamming on me)

I was using Rage missiles, but I could try switching to Mjolnir. I've been told that the navy ships inside FW plexes have flat resistance profiles, so (as far as I know) it shouldn't matter which damage type I am doing to them.

A thrasher can easily hit close to the same DPS of my cylone.

Here's a 6.7 million isk thrasher fit, with T1/Meta 4 modules that deals 219 DPS with my skills

[Thrasher, *Simulated Thrasher]
Gyrostabilizer I


200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I




EMP S x840



219 DPS on that cheap thrasher.

Now let's look at this 42.9 million isk Cyclone:

[Cyclone, *ATEST]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
Ballistic Control System I


Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
[Empty High slot]
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
[Empty High slot]
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I



Warrior I x5

Scourge Heavy Assault Missile x600


This Cyclone has 263 DPS with my skills. I expected more from 5 HAM launchers. That's a pathetic amount of DPS. If I add 2 more ballistic control units, the DPS reaches 313, just enough to crack the tank on the NPC ships inside large plexes - but at a slow pace of killing them. If I upgrade the drones to Valks, I get 379 DPS, which is a little more respectable and doesn't take so long to kill the battlecruisers in the large plexes.

Still though, a big reason why I fly the Cyclone is because it's versatile, but man - are you seeing my point?
I can cheaply fit a pvp Breacher. with one damage module in the low, and easily clear novice plexes.
I can cheaply fit a pvp Talwar, with one damage module in the low, and easily clear small plexes.
I can cheaply fit a pvp Rupture, with one damage module in the low, and clear medium plexes.
but a cheaply fit pvp Cyclone, with one damage module in the low, cannot clear large plexes. THIS IS THE INCONSISTENCY that I'm pointing out. If any of these insulting people can give me a valid and logial reasoning as to why this is the way that it is, I'd be happy to take the answer. But so far it seems like people are quick to jump to conclusions that I'm either A) Unskilled in flying battlecruisers, B) Farming LP, or C) that I'm a "sh!thead"
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#9 - 2017-01-08 10:26:30 UTC
I just did another test and put together a cheap hurricane fit: (49.5 million isk) and it deals 391 DPS

[Hurricane, *Simulated Hurricane]
Gyrostabilizer I


425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I
425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I
425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I
425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I
425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I
425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I



Warrior I x5

EMP M x720

391 DPS


So I guess the conclusion is that HAMs are trash and therefore, the cyclone is kinda trash too.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#10 - 2017-01-08 10:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
i'm no expert but i don't get why you're trying to compare artillery vs missiles, they're different and thus have different pros and cons.

thrasher is different than cyclone too, you can fit 3 damage mods to a cyclone while you literally can't in a thrasher.

Just Add Water
Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-01-08 11:28:19 UTC
I would say that running larges with a cheap battlecruiser is more like running smalls in a cheap frigate than novices they are balanced around both battleships and battlecruisers.

I will assume you are fighting Amarr so try hobgoblins and EM missiles.

Cyclone is a tanky shield ship, those lows are there for BCU's. It will literally cost nothing for more damage mods, shield res rigs and meta tackle and shield booster.

However cheap shield cane with autos and damage mods will prob clear a large faster.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#12 - 2017-01-08 18:32:04 UTC
Please be respectful if you want to participate on the forums. I have removed a disrespectful post.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

ISD Decoy

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Aves Asio
#13 - 2017-01-09 00:17:27 UTC
You are putting stabs in those lowslots arent you
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#14 - 2017-01-09 00:32:10 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Arcturus Ursidae, it's nice to get a reasonable response from somebody - instead of insulting or condescending responses like above.

In the remaining lowslots:
Missile Guidance Enchancer
Damage Control Unit
Signal Amplifier (faster lock time, harder to use target jamming on me)
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#15 - 2017-01-09 06:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Since large complexes give more Loyalty Points (like... A LOT more), it is reasonable to have an NPC that is a fair bit tougher than the average NPCs you see in other complexes.

Moreover, smaller complexes are supposed to be more "newbie friendly."
Large complexes are intended to something that more "experienced players" will go after.



And yes... the fit of your ship (especially a larger ship) DOES matter.

- Unlike smaller ship, larger ships rely FAR more heavily on skills and modules to get the most performance out of them. You can't "half ass" fit a larger ship and expect "acceptably nominal" results.
Larger ships are MEANT to be bruisers that you commit to in terms of skills, fitting, and tactics.

- In EVE, larger ships are subject the general paradigm of "diminishing returns."
Even a battleship fitted with all Tech 2 modules is going to struggle getting more than 1100 DPS (at least, not without making some serious tradeoffs in tank and utility).
A destroyer is going to be putting out 30 to 50% as much DPS for a fraction of the cost... even when fit with Tech 2 modules.
This is okay.
And this is okay because larger ships are designed to gain immensely more power when working together with other ships.



Anyways... here is a "cheap fit" that should provide you with more "PIIISSSHHHHH"

[Cyclone, New Setup 1]
Nanofiber Internal Structure I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Damage Control I

50MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Shield Boost Amplifier I
Large Shield Booster I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
425mm AutoCannon I, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon I, EMP M

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x5
EC-300 Hornet x5


You should be pushing 350+ dps with this fit. And should be able to tank about 200 dps.



edit: I will also add that NPC resistance profiles do matter in Faction Warfare.
If you are fighting Amarr... you want EM and Thermal based weapons.

The only NPCs that have a "flat" resistance profile are; Sleepers, Drifters, and Incursion Sansha. That is it.


And yes... this is coming from someone who did Faction Warfare for YEARS.

How did you Veterans start?
Aves Asio
#16 - 2017-01-09 11:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aves Asio
ShahFluffers wrote:
edit: I will also add that NPC resistance profiles do matter in Faction Warfare.
If you are fighting Amarr... you want EM and Thermal based weapons.

The only NPCs that have a "flat" resistance profile are; Sleepers, Drifters, and Incursion Sansha. That is it.


And yes... this is coming from someone who did Faction Warfare for YEARS.


I tested this a number of times on minmatar plex rats and i didint see a difference between explosive or any other damage types. Im not saying that this is not true, all im saying is my jackdaw was hitting them for the same damage no matter what ammo type was loaded.

Maybe they changed it at one point.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#17 - 2017-01-09 15:10:37 UTC
Gank fit blaster algos will kill the Large plex Rat

Hecate can kill it and has a near 2 second align time if you don't want to fight other spaceships in a spaceship fighting game!!
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#18 - 2017-01-09 19:49:24 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Arcturus Ursidae, it's nice to get a reasonable response from somebody - instead of insulting or condescending responses like above.

In the remaining lowslots:
Missile Guidance Enchancer
Damage Control Unit
Signal Amplifier (faster lock time, harder to use target jamming on me)





Specifically to kill the BS, you don't need a guidance enhancer, and you don't need faster lock time. Medium weapons will hit a BS hull just fine. Lock time will be just fine.

Shahs fit should be a noticeable improvement, I'd probly switch his Cap Booster for a web or point... just in case stuff happens.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#19 - 2017-01-09 20:10:51 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Arcturus Ursidae, it's nice to get a reasonable response from somebody - instead of insulting or condescending responses like above.

In the remaining lowslots:
Missile Guidance Enchancer
Damage Control Unit
Signal Amplifier (faster lock time, harder to use target jamming on me)





Specifically to kill the BS, you don't need a guidance enhancer, and you don't need faster lock time. Medium weapons will hit a BS hull just fine. Lock time will be just fine.

Shahs fit should be a noticeable improvement, I'd probly switch his Cap Booster for a web or point... just in case stuff happens.


Just in case stuff happens is the whole reason for the signal amp. But given that this fit doesn't produce enough DPS to take down the BC (not the BS) inside the large Plex, I agree that it would be worth dropping it for at least one more BCU. In all honesty though, I plan on just switching to a hurricane. You can hit over 300 DPS on a hurricane more easily than with the Cyclone.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#20 - 2017-01-09 20:19:21 UTC
Kind of a side point.:

I never liked the change to the Cyclone, when they changed it to a missile boat.
Even less DPS than a Drake, it felt like a wasted hull at that point.

Shoulda left it as it was.
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