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Why do people say the rifter is bad?
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Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#81 - 2017-01-07 18:52:52 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ships= stats
no stats = no ship

There is no escaping the fact that ship stats underlie everything in EVE.
There is also no escaping the fact that the balance in stats between those ships is imperfect.
Pilot capability can swing the favor, but it cannot change the systemic stats of the ships in the engagement.


What are you even saying dude? I mean, yeah, a ship is it's stats, that's pretty obvious to anyone. Your ship has X PG, Y CPU, Z slots, and a few other things and you as a player can't do anything about that. However I don't believe your premise that the hulls are that imbalanced in the first place. Next, the bare hull stats mean next to nothing in a fight because both ships will be fitted to fill a certain strategy.

Your argument that pvp comes down to stats alone is demonstrably false, yet you continue. And worse, if you accept that it is not hull stats but fitted ship stats that are the decider, then you are agreeing with Remiel that player strategy is the important factor.

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Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2017-01-07 19:18:15 UTC
Cause its minmatar and minmatar are ugly trash ships.
Cyrina FaithWeaver
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2017-01-07 19:48:22 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
At this point, I've flown the rifter quite a lot. It's not the best for sure, but I'm not sure what it is exactly that makes it apparently bad. is it just a case of other t1 ships being op?


Its not bad, its just that its terrible for the role of scram kiter or projection ship. Its outclassed by rockets, which perform said role much better, it either needs a new role or some kind of buff to make it a relevant ship.
Cyrina FaithWeaver
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2017-01-07 19:51:28 UTC
Kamala Sakar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


I was under the impression that EVE PvP is more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, is that wrong ?


It is if your in faction warfare, however outside of that, pilot skill matters alot more. Hellovalot more.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#85 - 2017-01-07 22:34:36 UTC
Hey Salvos.

Explain this.

Itty solo's Mega

I also remember the Velator pilot who murdered an Oracle.

And all this was BEFORE the rebalance.

Yep, pilot skill counts for nothing........

Roll

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#86 - 2017-01-07 23:01:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


The notion that all ships are only as "good" as the pilot sitting in them, is false.


No it isn't. That's the opposite of the truth. The stats, which you are so obsessed about, define the potential capability of a ship. The piloting skill, experience, alertness and situation (plus variables like having ping spots, not getting snagged on a wreck, current shield/armor/cap which might have been depleted from previous activity, and so on) of the pilot are what determine what fraction of that potential capability is actually brought to bear on a given situation.

If what you hypothesise were the case, there would never be siuations where "inferior" ships prevailed over superior ones, or where smaller, highly skilled groups defeat (or at least inflict disproportionate casualties) larger groups. Yet the evidence is that these situations occur so frequently as to be unremarkable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#87 - 2017-01-07 23:34:05 UTC
Rifter can conceivably kite, brawl, or scramkite but not particularly well. The Slasher's slot layout and bonus set just make it a more user friendly ship if you want to use projectiles. Last I checked, the only really strong entry in Minmatar's frigate lineup is the Breacher. This is all second and third hand hearsay, though.
I think if the Rifter's utility high was changed to a mid, then it would claim the scramkiter crown with best-in-class range control.
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#88 - 2017-01-07 23:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
Damn you people are dumb. Reading this for 5 pages, and all I'm getting is guff about which ship is better.... BUT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS SAID WHY... What are the attributes which make it what it is? What was so good about it? How was it nerfed? What does it do and what is it good for now? There is absolutely no information in this thread save for a bunch of people arguing.

I'm sure that any ship in the hands of a capable pilot is a good ship - and would also add that piloting skill is not a one dimensional attribute. It is the matching of the style of ship with the inclinations of the player which truly produces the best results. So what is this ship all about?
Orlacc
#89 - 2017-01-08 00:11:35 UTC
Topics like this show how the demographic has changed........are pallys better than shammys? (Have to put a "Y" after everything)

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2017-01-08 00:17:04 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Damn you people are dumb. Reading this for 5 pages, and all I'm getting is guff about which ship is better.... BUT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS SAID WHY... What are the attributes which make it what it is? What was so good about it? How was it nerfed? What does it do and what is it good for now? There is absolutely no information in this thread save for a bunch of people arguing.

I'm sure that any ship in the hands of a capable pilot is a good ship - and would also add that piloting skill is not a one dimensional attribute. It is the matching of the style of ship with the inclinations of the player which truly produces the best results. So what is this ship all about?


I actually wrote a post outlining what makes it good. Better? There is no 'better'. This isn't Call of Duty or Black Desert with best in slot gear, it's EVE Online. What makes it better is how you fit and fly it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2017-01-08 00:28:15 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Lulu Lunette wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
HAH, ok.

So you just happened to end up there by sheer accident and never noticed it's full of newbies, and you never moved elsewhere In two years.

Right, ok.


Why don't you go there and see how full of newbies it is?


Oh no, it has a lot of older players claiming to be awesome, they just don't shoot each other very often. That would just get in the way of shooting newbies.


What's wrong with living where the food is? Smile


Nothing, I'm perfectly fine with it. But when people start putting up a smoke screen about how awesome they are and then illustrate that by how they risked an Atron to kill some pve guy in a Kestrel then I'll point and laugh.

Not saying he's bad, that would be stupid, but the whole "raah look at my killboard" isn't working in his favour. At least not with people who DO have a clue, I'm sure it works fine with most other people.


Actually, it's not meant to work in my favour. I'm not pointing at my kb to say, "look at how good I am", I'm pointing at it to say, "I'm much more qualified to understand PVP than both Reinhardt and Salvos combined", which is demonstrably true. You haven't pointed out anything except how little you understand about EVE Online. The fact you keep calling anything outside of rookie systems a 'newbie area' is enough to demonstrate this, but also the assumptions you make about what people are thinking in engagements.... you're not a mind-reader. You're quite simply out of your league with me. There are many who post here who are not, who I would take more seriously in a discussion about PVP, but you and Salvos are not them. Not even close.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#92 - 2017-01-08 00:31:39 UTC
When I started, I cut my teeth on the Rifter. When I was new, I loved how it looked more than how it performed. When I went into lowsec and started doing FW, I flew an armor buffer fit Rifter in our small gang but it was encouraged by all of my corporation to start training into Gallente ships.

I didn't understand until I got into the Tristan (my favorite since that is my name IRL). That ship has so much flexibility and versatility, I ditched the Rifter and never looked back. I still love my rust covered ships but I have no reason whatsoever to fly the Rifter since so many other ships excel it in so many ways.

I am just sad that I missed the time where it was the King of the Frigates because I still love the look of it.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2017-01-08 04:04:51 UTC
Since I'm not really into PvP I can't say if the Rifter is good or bad for that type of content. However I can say I love the Rifter and think it's great for low level PvE content. Also if I recall correctly the Dramiel for a long time was king of Frigates for 1v1 PvP content.

Now when people say Pilot skills I would think they're referring to Pilot experience and tactics since skills actually affect ship stats. So for ship stats verses Pilot experience in equal 1v1 situation, I have to say ship stats wins over Pilot experience.

Case in point :

A few years ago when CCP had a 3 part Tourist / Exploration contest - Sanctuary Image Contest - one of the tasks was to get a screen shot of your pod on fire.

I contacted a good friend of mine who indulged in PvP and asked him to help me complete that task. He agreed and also offered to teach me some PvP 1v1 tactics since I had no experience in that content. We both got into Reaper (Rookie) ships fit exactly the same, selected an empty out of the way system, made a couple of safe spots and started dueling.

During the course of that engagement, we both noticed that my ship was actually dispensing more DPS, had better defense, was faster and could hit at further range yet we were both in the same ships fit exactly the same.

After checking we observed that my skills were higher than his which actually gave my ship better stats. Granted it wasn't a lot but during the course of that encounter it was definitely making a difference.

Take from this what you will.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Sark Nosha
Nosha Trading Empire
#94 - 2017-01-08 04:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sark Nosha
As far as tech 1 frigates are concerned the rifter and the slasher are right up there with the best. Iv seen people do some serious damage in those ships.
Annabelle Le
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#95 - 2017-01-08 04:43:09 UTC
If I'm flying a Rifter then it's bad. Any ship I fly is bad though.... Of course it might be me.
Khenza Vektara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2017-01-08 06:52:24 UTC
I love my Rifters, and my Rifters love me. Always have, always will.

I hear the roar of the big machine

Two worlds and in between

Hot metal and methedrine...

I hear your empire down
Salvos Rhoska
#97 - 2017-01-08 09:17:32 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:


Yep, pilot skill counts for nothing........

Roll


I havent said that.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#98 - 2017-01-08 09:26:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


If what you hypothesise were the case, there would never be siuations where "inferior" ships prevailed over superior ones, or where smaller, highly skilled groups defeat (or at least inflict disproportionate casualties) larger groups. Yet the evidence is that these situations occur so frequently as to be unremarkable.


I said that in context of the post I was replying to.
You are right, the ship stats dont matter much if it is piloted by a blindfolded baboon.

My point is that there are "bad" ships in this game, in terms of stats.
I say this even considering the rock/scissor/paper and altogether asymmetric ship balance in this game.

The ship stats are primary.
The capacity of the pilot, is secondary.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#99 - 2017-01-08 09:33:51 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Your argument that pvp comes down to stats alone is demonstrably false, yet you continue


You are misrepresenting my argument.

Nowhere have I said PvP comes down to ship stats "alone".

I am saying ship stats are primary.
Pilot capacity, is secondary, and restricted by the above.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Kamala Sakar
Doomheim
#100 - 2017-01-08 09:39:17 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
Salvos is saying that the fit/ship primarily determines the outcome of a fight, whereas remiel aslo said the same thing in that the fit was what let him win the talos fight, and that fits determine a good pilot. You are both saying the same thing with a different set of clothes. can we get back to the rifter now please?


Sorry for sort of derailing your quite interesting topic with my innocent remark on how I as a newbie percieve the PvP part of EVE, guess I should have known the no 1 rule here on the forum which is: STAY ON TOPIC Straight

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