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Fleet formations
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Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-01-04 18:08:45 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i find the balls to look elegant. how do they look bad?



balls do not elegant when they are messy, all piling on each other, they will look better if some aesthethics are applied, wich also will aid for ggame mechanics.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2017-01-04 18:56:40 UTC
Yak X wrote:



yes looks is part of this, but as you have mentioned the n+1 is the ability to bring one more, now this would be less of a problem if you couldnt put them all in the same place where they can concentrate fire, you can always put +1 in the ball of ships, instead you will have to move fleets to other positions.


Just...how big do you want to make this collision sphere? And what are you going to do when this breaks gates, POS, citadel tethering, PANIC modules, command bursts, bubbles and bombs. Are you going to increase the range of all of these things to counter the changes?

I am assuming that if you want it to be impossible to put a hundred battleships on an anchor, you also want it to be impossible to put ten in a pos? or undock and attempt to move a fleet in any way?

And what's your solution when the fleets simply orbit their anchor instead of approaching?

Also, you are aware that most people play big fights like that zoomed way out and with graphical settings at absolute minimum, right? Who even cares what a fleet looks like if you can't actually see the ships? Again, please try a big fight before calling for massive changes to the way they work base on nothing but the ascetics of a youtube video.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2017-01-04 20:49:52 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Yak X wrote:



yes looks is part of this, but as you have mentioned the n+1 is the ability to bring one more, now this would be less of a problem if you couldnt put them all in the same place where they can concentrate fire, you can always put +1 in the ball of ships, instead you will have to move fleets to other positions.


Just...how big do you want to make this collision sphere? And what are you going to do when this breaks gates, POS, citadel tethering, PANIC modules, command bursts, bubbles and bombs. Are you going to increase the range of all of these things to counter the changes?

I am assuming that if you want it to be impossible to put a hundred battleships on an anchor, you also want it to be impossible to put ten in a pos? or undock and attempt to move a fleet in any way?

And what's your solution when the fleets simply orbit their anchor instead of approaching?

Also, you are aware that most people play big fights like that zoomed way out and with graphical settings at absolute minimum, right? Who even cares what a fleet looks like if you can't actually see the ships? Again, please try a big fight before calling for massive changes to the way they work base on nothing but the ascetics of a youtube video.



looks is part of it, so even if they play zoomed out, it doesnt change everything else.
its not breaking anything, in fact its broken right now, as you can pile up ships on top of each other, so it doesnt matter, what will happend is that now you will requre different fleets, depnding on numbres to accompany with logi and command ships.this applyes to any other "terrain" as now you wont be able to pile them together for attack or defense.

about pos the shield could be off if inside the pos shields, why will undock be impossible? you undock you leave if you dont ships push each other according to mass whats the problem?


that leaves gates, but what will the problem be there? unless they are all standing in it, by wich point they will only push each other according to mass.

i havent figure out the exact numbers for the collision sphere, but the idea still stands, however they might be based on ship size and type, allowing frigates to orbit bigger ships bypassing the "shield" (magnetic bumper) due to speed, this will also allow for ramming to continue.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2017-01-04 21:05:40 UTC
The problem with gates, tethers, undocks, acceleration gates (Hi incursion fleets! He wants you to suffer too!), wormholes, bubbles, panic modules, command bursts and literally everything else that is dependant on range is that you are massively limiting the use of all of them.

Try and jump a fleet through a gate if they can't fly together because of some magic shield, and they're all just going to bounce off when you warp in. try and undock a fleet, and they're going to ping off in all directions. try to tether a fleet, and the same will happen. try to bubble a hostile fleet that is all of a sudden massively spread out, and you're not going to catch anything like as many as you would now.

Try to have your incursion fleet enter a site, and they're all going to bounce off and enter staggered. Which will probably get expensive highsec boats killed. Hilarious as that is, bump mechanics should really not be the cause.

I do not believe you have put any thought in to what your idea will actually do besides look pretty.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-01-04 22:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
Danika Princip wrote:
The problem with gates, tethers, undocks, acceleration gates (Hi incursion fleets! He wants you to suffer too!), wormholes, bubbles, panic modules, command bursts and literally everything else that is dependant on range is that you are massively limiting the use of all of them.

Try and jump a fleet through a gate if they can't fly together because of some magic shield, and they're all just going to bounce off when you warp in. try and undock a fleet, and they're going to ping off in all directions. try to tether a fleet, and the same will happen. try to bubble a hostile fleet that is all of a sudden massively spread out, and you're not going to catch anything like as many as you would now.

Try to have your incursion fleet enter a site, and they're all going to bounce off and enter staggered. Which will probably get expensive highsec boats killed. Hilarious as that is, bump mechanics should really not be the cause.

I do not believe you have put any thought in to what your idea will actually do besides look pretty.



you will not be doing any of this as one fleet, it will happend as several fleets thats the point, as of right now any number of ships can be put together whats the benefit of this gameplay and looks wise?

incursions however didnt cross my mind, but the same will apply but you will need two fleets with support instead of one, as they will be positioned differentlt.

it seems to me that i have, put enough tought except for the actual numbers but a good start will be double the size and according to ship type.

you see this problems you mentioned come from the same source, the capacity to put n number of ships at any position, so logi can reapir them all, they can all concentrate fire, command ships now affect them all with burst regardless of numbers, you just have to swithc targets.

so what are the advantages of this?, you said it might be complicated, that will depend on the ship as the simplest one will be ship type and fittings, however you will require more support for the other fleets as logi and command wont be able to affect n+1 number of ships, but whats wrong about that? it seems to me this will be helpful with bring n+1 problem as even if you do brin them the effect they will have on the battle will be restricted by positioning.

it will look much better and will potentialy create a new career as admiral.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2017-01-04 23:02:34 UTC
My scimitar can rep to something like 70km. If it is impossible to have 255 ships in a 70km ball, then it is basically impossible to play this game.

My Cerberus has a missile range upwards of 100km, if I can't have a fleet of 255 guys in cruisers having the same target within 100km of all of them, how am I going to actually play the game at all?

You have no numbers, and literally any point anyone has about any aspect has just been met with 'you will need several fleets', which really does not answer anything. You have not thought this idea through.

Look at the Jita undock. How do you propose that will work without ships pinballing off of eachother constantly? There aren't even any fleets involved.

How is this going to change shiptypes and fittings, other than probably making battleships even worse?




Doubling the bump range of ships will make doing anything at all with a fleet of capitals an absolute ballache, but won't actually affect subcaps much, so that's a thing I guess.

How is this going to 'create a new career as an admiral' that does not already exist? We call them 'fleet commanders'. Every group has them.


I will say it again. Play. In. A. Large. Fleet. Battle. Before. Making. Suggestions. About. them.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-01-05 00:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
Danika Princip wrote:
My scimitar can rep to something like 70km. If it is impossible to have 255 ships in a 70km ball, then it is basically impossible to play this game.

My Cerberus has a missile range upwards of 100km, if I can't have a fleet of 255 guys in cruisers having the same target within 100km of all of them, how am I going to actually play the game at all?

You have no numbers, and literally any point anyone has about any aspect has just been met with 'you will need several fleets', which really does not answer anything. You have not thought this idea through.

Look at the Jita undock. How do you propose that will work without ships pinballing off of eachother constantly? There aren't even any fleets involved.

How is this going to change shiptypes and fittings, other than probably making battleships even worse?




Doubling the bump range of ships will make doing anything at all with a fleet of capitals an absolute ballache, but won't actually affect subcaps much, so that's a thing I guess.

How is this going to 'create a new career as an admiral' that does not already exist? We call them 'fleet commanders'. Every group has them.


I will say it again. Play. In. A. Large. Fleet. Battle. Before. Making. Suggestions. About. them.



you are repeating the same thing, if logi can support a large a fleet is fine they will be at the back of it, if they dont more will be needed, the thing is you wont be able to put that many ships in a position were they will be able to concentrate fire, on a single traget, so the n+1 effect.

jita will work the same as it does now, but ships will be spread, if you mean they could be stopped from docking thats a no issue really, because it wont happend.

so, if fleets cannot put an unlimited number of attackers (a ball of ships)(n+1) within range the solution is to spread the fleet, what is the problem with that? if logi cannot support both fleets then you use two logi fleets.

so what is the problem with this? it seems to me it enhaces gameplay doesnt it? why? because right now you can put an unlimited number of ships within the same range at wich they can all shoot at the same single target, they can all be repired by the same logi fleet and they can all be targeted by the command burts, regardless of numbers,now why is that a good thing?.

i say again i was field marshall at the emperor service.

beisdes several spread fleets will look better than the ball of ships, an admiral might or might not be required to coordinate the fleets, depending on the ability of the fleet commanders as battleines will be more complicated that only range.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2017-01-05 00:53:30 UTC
it still doesn't get rid of n+1 they bing the max number that can work in two fleets i bring 3

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-01-05 00:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it still doesn't get rid of n+1 they bing the max number that can work in two fleets i bring 3



true, not entirely but it does restrict how many you can put into position to fire at a single traget and be repaire and in some cases it might even restrict wether you can bring the fleet if support is available for it or at least the type of fleet.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-01-05 02:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
a good start might be 1,3,4 and 5 being destroyers and below, cruisers up to battleships followed by capitals and then titans speed will allow smaller ships to move closer to bigger ships using the similar mechanics as ramming.

assuming a diamond formation the biggest danger might be the center as both extremes might not be reached by the full damage of the enemy fleet.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2017-01-05 02:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Yak X wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it still doesn't get rid of n+1 they bing the max number that can work in two fleets i bring 3



true, not entirely but it does restrict how many you can put into position to fire at a single traget and be repaire and in some cases it might even restrict wether you can bring the fleet if support is available for it or at least the type of fleet.



only side this helps is the larger one all this does is make the need for more people greater to ensure you have enough to fill dps and support


it also kills brawling fleets and forces the meta even more in the direction of long range

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-01-05 04:50:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Yak X wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it still doesn't get rid of n+1 they bing the max number that can work in two fleets i bring 3



true, not entirely but it does restrict how many you can put into position to fire at a single traget and be repaire and in some cases it might even restrict wether you can bring the fleet if support is available for it or at least the type of fleet.



only side this helps is the larger one all this does is make the need for more people greater to ensure you have enough to fill dps and support


it also kills brawling fleets and forces the meta even more in the direction of long range



im not sure about the larger side, as it is now the fleet will mass n+1 ships so have more fire to target a single ship, with this larger fleets does not necessarily mean an advantage as some of those will serve no pourpose, depending on the enemy force.
a larger entity might be able to field more fleets, but it will also require more organization for attacking a smaller force.

it depends as brwaling trough the flanks of lets say a large diamong formation will render the extremes useless for counter attack,, same thing if the back of the fleet is attacked, as the defending fleet will not have 360 degrees range and damage, it might also serve as an assault force.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#33 - 2017-01-05 07:55:29 UTC
how exactly is a brawling fleet going to get that close if the enemy fleet cant even be that close?

and in eve needing more organization is not going to be an issue you already need good organization just to have a large fleet.


this in no way stops n+1 nor does it do anything other than hurt small groups of people now that they need to devote 2x as much to support once they need that second fleet.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2017-01-05 11:41:14 UTC
What is wrong with a ball as a formation in space. It's even used in a great many space novels that are considered to be good authors.

N+1 is an issue but there are only two really viable methods to really break N+1. Hamster melting actual line of effect damage that hits any ship in it's path (Not to mention the abuses by either planting a cloaked ship between a mission runner and their target, or two of you sandwiching a mission runner and shooting 'each other'). Or damage caps on ships so only a squad (Assuming same size ships and normal DPS fits) of ships is viable to kill a single ship, which then introduces logi caps including capacitor transfers, and a bunch of other balance issues also.
Neither of which actually stop N+1, but just require more skill and co-ordination to make a larger number of pilots work, rather than the current N+1 where everyone follows a single broadcast, so 50 or 200 ships require the same CnC work.

For video's the N+1 is only an issue because it doesn't create movie drama. Videos don't really care about balance, actually video's are normally best when the sides aren't evenly matched.
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2017-01-05 18:26:48 UTC
Yak X wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
I don't think you understand what n+1 means.



well whatever it means, the problem remains if you can make a ball of ships (that looks bad) and put them within range of the enemy it comes down to more ships, if you couldnt do that it will force you to use formations and different fleets from different positions, to attack a target, to do this seems to me a good solution is the hit detection increase, wich will create a formation by itself, adding to this you could make predefined fleet formations.


If you want to break up blobs, fly a bomber?
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2017-01-05 23:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
What is wrong with a ball as a formation in space. It's even used in a great many space novels that are considered to be good authors.

N+1 is an issue but there are only two really viable methods to really break N+1. Hamster melting actual line of effect damage that hits any ship in it's path (Not to mention the abuses by either planting a cloaked ship between a mission runner and their target, or two of you sandwiching a mission runner and shooting 'each other'). Or damage caps on ships so only a squad (Assuming same size ships and normal DPS fits) of ships is viable to kill a single ship, which then introduces logi caps including capacitor transfers, and a bunch of other balance issues also.
Neither of which actually stop N+1, but just require more skill and co-ordination to make a larger number of pilots work, rather than the current N+1 where everyone follows a single broadcast, so 50 or 200 ships require the same CnC work.

For video's the N+1 is only an issue because it doesn't create movie drama. Videos don't really care about balance, actually video's are normally best when the sides aren't evenly matched.



distance, or the capacity for n+1 number of ships to fire at the same target also breaks this problem, and it will be easier to do with less problems and without interfiring with other game mechanics.

distance will restrict the number of shups that can be put within range, as it is now n+1 number of ships can do this by just piling unto the ball of ships.

considering this it will be more balanced, as larger fleets will be redundant against a smaller force or require more coordination to function properly.

to keep it realistic the magnetic shield (increased collision sphere) will funtion similar to ramming, so it might be bypassed by speed, allowing smaller vessels to fly within a larger fleetd formation, all this mechanics are already in the game.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-01-05 23:44:41 UTC
Dornier Pfeil wrote:
Yak X wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
I don't think you understand what n+1 means.



well whatever it means, the problem remains if you can make a ball of ships (that looks bad) and put them within range of the enemy it comes down to more ships, if you couldnt do that it will force you to use formations and different fleets from different positions, to attack a target, to do this seems to me a good solution is the hit detection increase, wich will create a formation by itself, adding to this you could make predefined fleet formations.


If you want to break up blobs, fly a bomber?



well its the aesthetics, but this will also have effects upon the fleet gameplay.
Yak X
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-01-05 23:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Yak X
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how exactly is a brawling fleet going to get that close if the enemy fleet cant even be that close?

and in eve needing more organization is not going to be an issue you already need good organization just to have a large fleet.


this in no way stops n+1 nor does it do anything other than hurt small groups of people now that they need to devote 2x as much to support once they need that second fleet.



right now the ball of fleets allow 360 degree fire with equal damage, so n+1 number of ships can concentrate fire regardless of the enemy position, this is also true for logi or command burst, as they can support n+1 number of sships as they are all within the same 360 degree bal.

now think of the diamond formation of a large fleet, distance betwwen them might prevent the full force to engage, as if they were line of fire but its simulated by range and the space between them, a brawler fleet can explout this, or it could even brek the fleet formation if its focused on keeping range, an analogy will be a cavalry charge.

now a superior and inferior force, the superior force does no longer have this 360 degree damage projection advantage so numbers altough always an advantage are less important depending on the inferior force size, in this case the superior force (as there will be an average depending on those two factors) will have the choice two field two fleets, however it might need support for both in order to chase the smaller force, instead of just relying on grouping as many people together within the same 360 degree damage projection supported ball of ships.
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