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When NPCs become detrimental to PVP

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#361 - 2017-01-04 11:06:19 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I know you are you said you are so what am I.


Circles, Salvos, just more circles. You haven't said anything that I haven't refuted with my demonstrably superior knowledge and understanding of EVE Online, and those with a similar understanding can see this just fine. You can deny it all you want, throw all the tantrums that you want, and expatiate all the pretentious paragraphs you want in denial of it, the fact is, you're wrong.

Again, it's really as simple as, if this was an intended consequence of attacking players in low sec, then the response fleets would come when you attacked them. You and others keep saying, "oh this is fine for low sec", but not a one of you lives there, or goes there, or has anything to do with it. The nulbears and wh rats all think this is cute because why should they care? They won't go anywhere or even log in half the time without 300 or more of their buddies on standby anyway. And not a one of you has any demonstrable, credible solo PVP experience to speak of. I do find it highly amusing that the vast majority of people in disagreement/denial of this reality are in NPC corps, though (or in your case, starter corps).

Again, I'm not arguing against consequences, or the removal of consequences. I'm asking for them to be balanced. You know this, Salvos, and I know you know this, which is why I know you're being intentionally disingenuous with your argumentation. I know you're not actually stupid, but acting like you are won't help your case.


To our distinguished panel,

I refuse to acknowledge Remiel's points because it would mean actually representing them correctly in my arguments.

This proves my intellectual dishonesty, untenability [sic] of my position, that I have no interest in debate/argumentation of the facts and issues (let alone an understanding of them), and am trying to pretend I know more than I do.


FTFY

This is not the court of C&P here. All this tabling, refuting and laughably 'proving' (nothing has been proven) here is stupid.

However I can understand the OP not gong over it all again. Arguing with someone that doesn't know how to debate or concede issues is pointless, especially yet again after all the previous times.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Mister Burns
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2017-01-04 11:11:49 UTC
Quit your whining, this is no different than a ratting ship getting killed by a T1 frigate because the T1 frigate had the rats to help breaking the tank of the ratting ship.
Salvos Rhoska
#363 - 2017-01-04 11:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2017-01-04 11:24:49 UTC
Mister Burns wrote:
Quit your whining, this is no different than a ratting ship getting killed by a T1 frigate because the T1 frigate had the rats to help breaking the tank of the ratting ship.


I haven't done any whining, Mr NPC Corp alt.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2017-01-04 11:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I posit...



Have you still not realised that nobody who understands the game (and therefore matters) gives one seventeenth of a **** what you 'posit'?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#366 - 2017-01-04 11:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I posit the following:

Remiels idea of "discussion and debate on issues", is to insult and ignore any participant or argument he disagrees with.

The method of this is to attempt to inflict personal insults and denigration, so as to reduce their personal credibility or flat out force them out of the discussion in disgust.

All the while refusing ro rationally rebut their arguments, ignoring them, and then refusing to defend his positions against them, conveniently calling it "repetition".

The purpose of tbis is to construct an echo-chamber, where he hopes evemtually only those whom agree with him remain, having ignored, gish posted and insulted any antagonists out of the thread. He hopes the resulting thread then presents a farcical "solidarity of opinion".

This is intellectually dishonest, deliberate and calculated.

He is not interested in discussion/debate on the issues.
He is only interested in shouting he is right and smarter than everyone else that disagrees with him.

I have a very thick skin, and almost never raise the issue of "toxicity", as I am huge proponent of less political correctness and unadulterated freedom of expression.

But in Remiel's case, his uncivil, insulting behavior is constant and persistant to such an extent that it raises the question of whether it is pathological, or deliberate. If that is not of a problem, there is the concurrent persistent refusal to acknowledge and rebut counter-arguments.

In conclusion, there is no point in arguing with OP.
He will just insult you or ignore you.
18 pages demonstrate this, repeatedly.

By ignoring arguments, and insulting everyone that attempts to do so, he maintains his belief in his own supremacy.
First by not allowing questioning of his views, and second by lowering the participant with personal insults.
In his mind, no-one is his equal. Not even those that agree.As a final resort he will even resort to grammar policing.
He has boasted about his exploits vs flat-earthers (which is a meme he didnt get as a joke), scientologists etc.
What he hasnt yet realized, is that his firm belief in that his is always right, and everyone else is beneath him, is that its just an illusion created by his own behavior, for his own benefit. Its not an objective reality.

A man that ignores critique, refuses to respond to it, and habitually insults any that express them, is very conveniently, in his own mind, always right and better than anyone else.
Salvos Rhoska
#367 - 2017-01-04 11:37:00 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I posit...



Have you still not realised that nobody who understands the game (and therefore matters) gives one seventeenth of a **** what you 'posit'?


Strawman.
Ad hominem.
Argumentum ad publicum.
Appeal to authority.

Im pressive fitting four logical fallacies in a single sentence.

Is this the best you have?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2017-01-04 11:45:25 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Projection


These attempts of yours to 'win' just by stating 'I win' are as successful as 'winning' a game of chess by flipping the board over and knocking the pieces to the ground. Yes, Salvos, you are being that guy.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#369 - 2017-01-04 11:50:48 UTC
Mister Burns wrote:
Quit your whining, this is no different than a ratting ship getting killed by a T1 frigate because the T1 frigate had the rats to help breaking the tank of the ratting ship.


Actually it is different in several ways.

Firstly, a ratting player has, at the point of contact, voluntarily engaged NPC's in combat . These mining fleet support do not require point of contact aggression, they can initiate combat based on previous PvP encounters that may be entirely unrelated to the player who was ratting.

Secondly, and here I can only speak from what I have seen in various videos and live streams, mining support fleets are far more dangerous than any belt rats I have ever come across. Depending on the ship type of the player who is aggressed by them, they can be unbeatable and very likely to kill any single player they target.
I have never been scrammed by a belt rat, mining fleet support use scrams, ewar, and logi along with some very highly powered dps ships.

Third, if a previous poster is to be believed, belt/ anom/ mission rats can and do switch target to an aggressor. They may not always switch- I am not familiar enough with the AI programing myself to know exactly what will trigger a target change though. Given that mining support fleets aggress based on standings, it is highly unlikely that they will switch targets mid fight, unless perhaps the player they are defending does something particularly silly, such as shooting them.





Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2017-01-04 11:51:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
In conclusion, there is no point in arguing with OP.
He will just insult you or ignore you.
18 pages demonstrate this, repeatedly.


No, Salvos, I insult or ignore people that make themselves worth insulting or ignoring, like you. But of course, you think the only discussion that's being had here is the one where you talk, and everybody else accepts what you say without challenge. That's not the case. I've actually had some good discussion here and paid attention to, and addressed, points of merit, just like I did yours, whereby you ignored what I said and just repeated your points over and over and over and over as if no one had addressed them.

No, Salvos, nor have you been here for 18 pages, but even if you had, the only people I am insulting/ignoring are the people who have insulted me, or ignored the OP, or misrepresented it, or otherwise. Anyone that has understood the point, and talked about it, and stayed on topic, hasn't been treated this way, not by me.

You have never earned my respect, Salvos. But somehow, on this thread, you've managed to make me respect you less than even that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#371 - 2017-01-04 11:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Projection


These attempts of yours to 'win' just by stating 'I win' are as successful as 'winning' a game of chess by flipping the board over and knocking the pieces to the ground. Yes, Salvos, you are being that guy.


The irony here, is that is exactly what you do.

You cant respond to any critique of you, because it drives exactly at that which you cannot, and will not undermine as the basis of your self-serving belief in your own superiority.

You are the one projecting this onto others.
I am stating it as an outside observer based on your consistent demonstrable behavior.

You ignore arguments, and insult anyone that disagrees with you.
Those are demonstrable facts of your behavior in this thread, constantly.

You not only tip over the chessboard when things dont go your way, , stick your fingers in your ears, you insult your opponents as well as, all the time, still expressing that you are the superior one.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#372 - 2017-01-04 11:59:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Projection


These attempts of yours to 'win' just by stating 'I win' are as successful as 'winning' a game of chess by flipping the board over and knocking the pieces to the ground. Yes, Salvos, you are being that guy.


The irony here, is that is exactly what you do.


No, it's not, Salvos, and your "I know you are you said you are" projection routine is extremely old, as old as you've been posting on these forums. You're a pretentious, narcissistic, self-righteous halfwit with your head so far up your own backside it's not even possible for you to even consider anymore that you might not be perfect. Which is why all I'm ever going to do to you on these forums now is ignore you, or troll you, because that's all you're worth, and all you've ever been worth, since you started posting in 2014. Don't think I forget that first thread where you pretended to be a lawyer, and now here you are pretending to be a nurse. I know what you definitely are not - any kind of expert on EVE Online, and that's all that matters here.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Etain Darklightner Agittain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2017-01-04 11:59:55 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
There is nothing left to discuss on this issue with OP.

All matters in it have been debated, quashed, refuted and tabled over 18 pages.

In that period, Remiel has repeatedly ignored and insulted every single person that has attempted to participate but with whom he disagrees, rather than arguing the points they raised.

Remiel was offered a sincere opportunity to concisely re-assert his remaining outstanding central positions, so as to re-invigorate the discussion on those.

He refused to do so, which means there is nothing left to discuss.


Actually salvo, he did recap that he's bitter at the "null bears" and their 300 hundred buddies, did openly state that the majority of us who have posted have no viable experience on solo pvp and as such have nothing positive to offer. This, for me, was a moment of clarity, as you see I do. I rat and participate in solo and group content, pvp and pve. Apparently this is not satisfactory enough to his standards to constitute a reasonable offer on the discussion. The thread should have been closed for some time, as a result.

Remi, you have repeatedly demonstrated, on numerous occassions the effects of tunnel vision and a steadfast refusal to regard the opinions and views of others as relevant to the discussion. The use of metaphors further demonstrates your unwillingness to be open to other possibilities, including your adaptation to in game mechanics. You have also posted that the game mechanics should not be as highly functional as it is.CCP's development of this mechanic allows for player characters, who mine, to get the the chance of going after medium rariety ores that are in greater abundance in lowsec than in high. To which you made mention that they were spies.

In short you're ranting, without allowing for other people's input on the situation. Might I recommend then, that you refrain from posting in the forums? That way it'll spare you whatever frustration you seem to think has been visited upon you, on purpose.

Salvos Rhoska
#374 - 2017-01-04 12:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
In conclusion, there is no point in arguing with OP.
He will just insult you or ignore you.
18 pages demonstrate this, repeatedly.


No, Salvos, I insult or ignore people that make themselves worth insulting or ignoring, like you. But of course, you think the only discussion that's being had here is the one where you talk, and everybody else accepts what you say without challenge. That's not the case. I've actually had some good discussion here and paid attention to, and addressed, points of merit, just like I did yours, whereby you ignored what I said and just repeated your points over and over and over and over as if no one had addressed them.

No, Salvos, nor have you been here for 18 pages, but even if you had, the only people I am insulting/ignoring are the people who have insulted me, or ignored the OP, or misrepresented it, or otherwise. Anyone that has understood the point, and talked about it, and stayed on topic, hasn't been treated this way, not by me.

You have never earned my respect, Salvos. But somehow, on this thread, you've managed to make me respect you less than even that.


This is nonsense.

You have overtly, immediately and persistently insulted anyone and everyone that has disagreed with you, purely for that.

Presenting yourself as a victim won't work. It is not the case. It is demonstrable from this thread that it is you who not only initiates with insults, but habitually includes them in almost every post thereafter to that person when they have remained civil throughout.

I have been here for 18 pages. Ive been monitoring this from the get go. You are the one that has ignored what others say.
There are obviously posters whom come into the thread late, and do not read it, but it is incumbent on you as the OP and defender of your position to respond to them in a civil fashion if you wish to discuss the issues at hand (as presented by you initially).

That you have made a token "concession", when proven wrong, is not sufficient indicator of your intent to discuss and argue the issues in this thread. Many others have made such concessions. You certainly have not given credit to those that convinced you that part of your initial premise was false.

Your claim that "nobody that disagrees with me, understands my view" is circular and false.
You need to get that into your head, albeit I doubt you are psychologically capable of that.

As I expressed in great detail as to your demonstrable behavior, and the deducible motives behind it, in how you "discuss and argue", these are consistent with a person that cannot address critique or questioning without feeling like they are "losing".

You ignore rebutals and arguments that you dont like, and insult anyone that expresses them.
All the while maintaining a posture of unwarranted, self-serving superiority.

You have never earned my respect. The only respect I have for you is that which every human being deserves simply for being a fellow human being. I find nothing, zero, in your behavior that warrants even a smidgen of respect, and I find it concerning that you seem incapable of introspecting on your own conduct that you would think otherwise.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2017-01-04 12:09:33 UTC
Etain Darklightner Agittain wrote:
I'm an NPC alt, lol


You've already shown what side you're on with your 'observations'. I don't care what you have to say either. If someone wants to actually discuss the point in a manner befitting a grown adult, one that doesn't favour a single group of players at the expense of anyone's playstyle, that's the discussion I want to have, because if you'd read and understood what I have to say so far, I'm not asking for an advantage, or a disadvantage, for anyone. I'm asking for the rebalancing of a demonstrably flawed mechanic skewed in the favour of one group of players in one NPC corp. I'm sure you've got your fingers crossed for that Aliastra mining fleet, so I'm going to ignore and/or troll you too now.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#376 - 2017-01-04 12:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I think what we are dealing with here, is a long-time 4chan user that, in conjunction with EVEs lack of constraints ingame, has completely lost the plot on how debate/argumentation proceeds in civil discourse.

He thinks brow-beating anonymous trolls on a polynesian acorn-painting image board constitutes "debate/argumentation".

I've been there, done that. I still do. Its easy to lose perspective and adopt a system of argumentation that grows awry and crooked as a result of the environments in which it has been practiced. He thinks insults, logical fallacies, and ignoring arguments in favor of ones own are how you "win" a debate.

But these methods do not apply here. or anywhere else than 4chan. Infact they are irrational and counter-productive.
They destroy discourse, avoid responsibility, and never get closer to a greater truth or consensus.

Repeatedly ignoring arguments and insulting their issuers, is not how you participate in a debate/discussion, much less "win" it.
Salvos Rhoska
#377 - 2017-01-04 12:25:22 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
If someone wants to actually discuss the point in a manner befitting a grown adult


Oh man, this one really takes the cake.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2017-01-04 12:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Etain Darklightner Agittain wrote:

*snip*

You have also posted that the game mechanics should not be as highly functional as it is.CCP's development of this mechanic allows for player characters, who mine, to get the the chance of going after medium rariety ores that are in greater abundance in lowsec than in high. To which you made mention that they were spies.

*snip*



This is something that I'd like to look at if I may.

As I have previously stated, I mine in low sec (and as the whim takes me, wormholes as well). Now, I am aware that for the purposes of Min/ Max type of play, this is not particularly efficient. I could certainly make more isk by dual-boxing with orca support in High sec. However I find it considerably more fun in low sec precisely because it more dangerous, and carries a far greater chance of a "player interaction". Should I carry out my mining reasonably undisturbed however, the payoff is not to be sneered at .

I am no-one special, I am not unique nor particularly gifted at Eve....but I don't need NPC's to hold my hand while I do this, so why should CCP think this is required? i certainly don't want it. I respectfully, and with no intent to be offensive, believe that anyone who needs NPC back-up to operate in low sec, is not really ready to operate in low sec.

I mentioned briefly in one of my earliest posts about a recent Vexor kill I made in low sec...not terribly impressive certainly. However that kill came about because I was mining, not actively seeking out PvP, but always mindful that it may happen regardless. Local went up, I saw 2 vexors on D-scan, so I bounced and docked.
Unfortunately it seemed they were going to hang around for a while, which was interrupting my mining ( isk/ h alert Blink )

Long story short, I re-shipped, d-scanned the two vexors to an anom. Engaged both, killed one, the other bugged out. Both players left local and I went back to mining in peace.
This is how I feel mining should be protected, by players who are willing to partake of PvP in order to defend their activities, not by NPC's.....I'm prepared to defend myself if I can, run if i can't and die well (if I can't run)*. < This is Eve imo.




* Or call friends, because friends are real.Lol
Salvos Rhoska
#379 - 2017-01-04 12:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Torin Corax wrote:

I am no-one special, I am not unique nor particularly gifted at Eve....but I don't need NPC's to hold my hand while I do this, so why should CCP think this is required? i certainly don't want it. I respectfully, and with no intent to be offensive, believe that anyone who needs NPC back-up to operate in low sec, is not really ready to operate in low sec.]


This is specifically and explicitly explained in the CCP Dev post linked in this thread.

Furthermore, there are no "readiness" restrictions on player behavior in any sector of EVE.
All are open to everyone, at any time.

This change means less "ready" players, as ypu define them, can now "more readily" operate in LS.
Whether they "need" the NPCs is arbitrary.
You dont "need" the NPCs to operate in LS.
You never have, and dont now either.

LS is and remains a sector with NPC participation and control.
If you want NPC free autonomy, move to NS or WH.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2017-01-04 12:41:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
If someone wants to actually discuss the point in a manner befitting a grown adult


Oh man, this one really takes the cake.


What really 'takes the cake' is when you think that I'm doing what you're doing, because it's something you do. Same thing happens when a thief loses something, he'll default to thinking someone stole it from him. Likewise, when I challenge your arguments, you accuse me of all the intellectual dishonesty you practice yourself. It's called 'projection', and you've been demonstrating that on these forums since 2014. I'm just repeating myself again, though. To who? I have no idea. You never listen, which is why I'm just not gonna bother anymore.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104