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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Confusing skill system.

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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#61 - 2016-12-31 21:39:53 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.

34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long.
Couldnt like 5 years be a cap?


you don't need all the skills trained to level 5...

i don't even have a single planet management, resource processing, structure management, corporation management, and production skills injected and i don't think i will ever on this character.

i also don't plan on injecting all of the science, trade, neural enhancement, fleet support, rigging, social, scanning, and most of the capital/super capital in this character.

join a corp. based on your preferred activities. get their fits/doctrine and focus on that first.

Just Add Water
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#62 - 2016-12-31 23:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Why so many skills? Its about crumbs.

Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?


The entire game is based around the concept of diminishing returns. Skills, ships, modules, implants, everything. It keeps the artificial barriers to newbies low so they can catch up to vets pretty quickly.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Memphis Baas
#63 - 2017-01-01 05:21:24 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have?

There is no limit to how many skillpoints you can have.
And as I said in an earlier post, no skill or specialty will prevent you from using another skill or specialty.


No, he's not asking, he's suggesting that CCP change the game to put in a limit of some sort. He's trying to deal with the fact that he's a newbie and (supposedly) we're all veterans, and he'll never catch up. You can see the progression of questions from "how to do x" to the realization that there's no way to jump to whatever he sees as the "end game" without either a lot of time or a lot of RL money.

So after 4 pages of advice, he's learning stuff, but it's mostly that he can't bypass the time requirement for skills. He hasn't moved on from the topic; for a while it looked like he was going to move to fittings, but no, he's staying on the skillpoints and time required. So my prediction is that once it sinks in that he can't bypass it (despite the advice on how to focus his training), he will be quitting.

It's not a fast game, it's not a 3-month MMO, he won't stay.

Some people need to reach an end, and mostly as proof that everyone else is blocked by the same end. This game doesn't have that, and he doesn't get that people delete their characters and extract their skillpoints and otherwise lose interest, so we all must be maxed-out veterans.

Reality is different, of course.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2017-01-01 07:45:58 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Okay forget the level cap thing and instead have a specific amount of skillpoints that you can have?

There is no limit to how many skillpoints you can have.
And as I said in an earlier post, no skill or specialty will prevent you from using another skill or specialty.


No, he's not asking, he's suggesting that CCP change the game to put in a limit of some sort. He's trying to deal with the fact that he's a newbie and (supposedly) we're all veterans, and he'll never catch up. You can see the progression of questions from "how to do x" to the realization that there's no way to jump to whatever he sees as the "end game" without either a lot of time or a lot of RL money.

So after 4 pages of advice, he's learning stuff, but it's mostly that he can't bypass the time requirement for skills. He hasn't moved on from the topic; for a while it looked like he was going to move to fittings, but no, he's staying on the skillpoints and time required. So my prediction is that once it sinks in that he can't bypass it (despite the advice on how to focus his training), he will be quitting.

It's not a fast game, it's not a 3-month MMO, he won't stay.

Some people need to reach an end, and mostly as proof that everyone else is blocked by the same end. This game doesn't have that, and he doesn't get that people delete their characters and extract their skillpoints and otherwise lose interest, so we all must be maxed-out veterans.

Reality is different, of course.



Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.

Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO
where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.

It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.

Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated
and depending on fittings and skills.

You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot.
You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge
learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should
not be brushed off but atleast considered.

Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#65 - 2017-01-01 08:02:43 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.

Do not take it too personally.

We see a lot of people who come and go on these forums... spouting some nonsense here and ranting about how "this game would be so much better if (insert core mechanic here) were completely replaced."

So we have become a little cynical.

Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO
where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.

That is what makes EVE nice.

You are not mechanically forced to "grind" in order to do anything in the game.

If you can find a way to make easy money (either by extorting others, snatching riches from another, or being a leader) then the game will let you do just that.
You do not have to do X quest to get Y gear.

You do not even need Y gear to perform well in X quest. Simply find a way around it.

Quote:
Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated
and depending on fittings and skills.

That actually makes the game more fair than most.

While skills make you more effective, it is your creativity and tactical prowess that will decide how well that effectiveness will be applied... or how well you can mitigate the tactical prowess of others.

Quote:
You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot.

Actually... you do.

But it is slower and not a "twitch" thing that other games have.

And there is "aiming." But it is a little tricker and more convoluted.


Quote:
trying to suggest different approaches should
not be brushed off but atleast considered.

You will find that well thought out ideas are recieved well and considered... especially when presented in a cogent way.

However, ideas that...
- directly fly in the face of what makes EVE "great" (or why many of us joined the game in the first place)...
- are based on "I want" or "I do not like"...

... tend to see some form of backlash.

How did you Veterans start?
Memphis Baas
#66 - 2017-01-01 11:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated and depending on fittings and skills.


You're a ship captain, not a dogfighter pilot. The smallest ship class is a frigate, not a fighter jet.

You give orders, like Capt. Kirk of the Enterprise, and they get carried out. When the Enterprise fires its lasers, they hit, its torpedoes, they are already locked on target. Kirk doesn't even push a button, he just waves his hand. Enterprise doesn't dogfight; it either absorbs damage to its shields, or not. Its "evasive maneuvers" are done by the computer, like we orbit or align.

This is a strategy game. Ships are designed to be rock / paper / scissors. If you undock the paper, and the scissors is waiting outside, the fight is mostly predetermined, and you'll lose; the trick of this game is to realize that the scissors is waiting, and to undock the rock instead. Information, scouting, espionage.

In an RTS (strategy) game, you may be able to upgrade the units a bit, but the point is to use the correct units to achieve your goal, not to grab a hold of one unit and hero it against the entire opponent's army. In an RTS game, you learn what the units can do, and how to control the user interface to show you what's going on properly, and then you're off to fight matches against other players. You don't get hung up on why units function that way or why it takes so long to unlock the bigger units.

You don't argue that the rules of chess should be changed. You simply play the game, or not. I mean, try it on a chess forum if you want, see how they react.

It was a bit rude to talk to Shah about you in this thread where you can see it, and I apologize for that, but I was not off-topic and thus was within the rules of the forum.

I hope you end up liking the game as it is, and continue playing it.

You'll have to be a unit before you can be a fleet commander or CEO (controller of units), where you can play the game like the RTS game it is. We always suggest that newbies get in a corp, so that they're not some hero unit without a purpose, but instead can learn the group strategy parts of the game, after learning how the pieces (ships) move on the board.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2017-01-01 11:48:28 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
[quote=Trasch Taranogas]

This is a strategy game. Ships are designed to be rock / paper / scissors. If you undock the paper, and the scissors is waiting outside, the fight is mostly predetermined, and you'll lose; the trick of this game is to realize that the scissors is waiting, and to undock the rock instead. Information, scouting, espionage. .



This is the eyeopener. This is the thing I have a hard time with.

No worries, I dont get offended. I have self managed forums in
the modmaking community and it takes a lot of self discipline
to stay smiling and understanding when people goes after
the forum-keeper in the most outrageous way possible.

I know the drills, oldies and noobs has to get along in the interest
of CCP, otherwise we are just wasting their time and energy.
In the end we all lose.

The purpose of these cesspools called forums are that skilled community
managers can pick out the good bits and "feel" the vibe of the players.

I dont know the History of Eve Online, I dont know if they have financial problems.
In that case we noobs are the main focus. That does NOT give us the right to
missbehave.

So you all noncontributing, "stuck in the past" oldies better keep smiling.

(Yeah I know, that last sentence was a little payback) Blink


Lets keep up the good vibe we have here.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Memphis Baas
#68 - 2017-01-01 12:04:04 UTC
This is the dogfight game. You can see the size of the ships there, too.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2017-01-01 12:20:29 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
This is the dogfight game. You can see the size of the ships there, too.


Looking good, too bad VR hasnt taken off yet.

No wonder Eve Online has lost a bit of motherly love
when this project has been the focus.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
mkint
#70 - 2017-01-01 12:29:06 UTC
Yeah, after seeing some of OP's other posts and locked threads, pretty sure he's just trolling.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2017-01-01 15:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Trasch Taranogas wrote:


Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.

Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO
where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.

It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.

Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated
and depending on fittings and skills.

You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot.
You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge
learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should
not be brushed off but atleast considered.

Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.


Given you are a WoT fan, I just thought I'd throw a few things out for consideraton..

Ever drive a pre- nerf KV1-S? The tank that was cried about on the forums for being OP as hell by people who couldn't be bothered to learn it's weaknesses?
Ever see what happens to those same "cry-babies" that jump into their shiny 1-S and think that they are now Gods-gift to WoT PvP...Then they go and sit in front of a TOG II (arguably the biggest joke tank in the game) thinking it's a nice fat kill? (Hint: TOG was my favorite tank, and I just loved the accusations of hacking/ cheating that came after vaporising clueless 1-S drivers)Twisted

If the answer is yes to the above then the concept transfers over to Eve quite nicely. SP is not all that important ( beyond being required for unlocking purposes), knowledge of the game trumps sp almost every single time.

Hell, are you trying to tell me you never, not once, got your IS circle strafed by a competent light driver or two who kept you perma-tracked while chipping away at your rear? If not then you got lucky at never meeting decent light drivers....or you just learned as much as you could about the game and used your knowledge effectively to beat your opponent.

Not that different after all really, except that Eve has way more to learn than WoT. Which in my opinion makes it by far the better game.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#72 - 2017-01-01 18:33:56 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Sorry but I cant let this go.

Took a look at the ingame shiptree.

If you want to be good at flying a Leviathan
you need skills worth 1333 days!

4 years to fly a ship? Admit it fanboys, this
cant be right.


By the time you've trained those skills, ideally, you'll be in a position to actually make use of them.

There are plenty of examples out there of people who have played credit-card warrior to *rush* into a Titan, only to discover that without a support fleet and without a network of friends, they're nothing more than a loot pinata waiting to go boom, much to the amusement of all and sundry.

Here is but one example.

EVE is a game where co-operation and teamwork are far more important than raw SP or ISK. It's a cliche, but it's also a truth: The best ship in EVE is FRIENDSHIP.

Someone with no friends and a Titan will very quickly become someone with no friends and no Titan.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2017-01-01 20:40:48 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:


Ouch, thats kinda hard and judgemental.

Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO
where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.

It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.

Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated
and depending on fittings and skills.

You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot.
You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge
learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should
not be brushed off but atleast considered.

Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.


Given you are a WoT fan, I just thought I'd throw a few things out for consideraton..

Ever drive a pre- nerf KV1-S? The tank that was cried about on the forums for being OP as hell by people who couldn't be bothered to learn it's weaknesses?
Ever see what happens to those same "cry-babies" that jump into their shiny 1-S and think that they are now Gods-gift to WoT PvP...Then they go and sit in front of a TOG II (arguably the biggest joke tank in the game) thinking it's a nice fat kill? (Hint: TOG was my favorite tank, and I just loved the accusations of hacking/ cheating that came after vaporising clueless 1-S drivers)Twisted

If the answer is yes to the above then the concept transfers over to Eve quite nicely. SP is not all that important ( beyond being required for unlocking purposes), knowledge of the game trumps sp almost every single time.

Hell, are you trying to tell me you never, not once, got your IS circle strafed by a competent light driver or two who kept you perma-tracked while chipping away at your rear? If not then you got lucky at never meeting decent light drivers....or you just learned as much as you could about the game and used your knowledge effectively to beat your opponent.

Not that different after all really, except that Eve has way more to learn than WoT. Which in my opinion makes it by far the better game.



Ahh, interesting. Somebody who might have actually driven in WoT.

I could write pages about this. Well to just comment, KV-1S was kinda OP.
Mine and many russkies favorite tank.
Yep, I kinda mastered that game with the russian line, did ok in lights, hated
meds and absolutely loved TDs. Say hello to my little BL-10.

Well, back to point. I knew exactly what to do, where to go and how to react to
my own team and the enemy team depending on map and the tank I drove.
Thats why EVE is so frustrating at the moment, Im lost and reaching out in this
forum. Maybe a bit of an attentionwhore.

Best part, this evening it all fell into place!

Burning Down The Hive: lost my suped up Cormorant. Got mad and picked up
my Ibis, fitted it with whatever long range gun (150mm Rail Gun) loaded
Iron Charge S, Afterburner and some long range thingy, maybe F-90 something.
Went back and kited down 4 of those Avi.
Ran out of ammo (160) then I got webified (let them too close)... died.

Im proud. Would say it was a turning point

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2017-01-01 21:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
Whooooo.

Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.

3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and
fitting is the key to this game.

F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up
against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.

Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#75 - 2017-01-01 22:02:29 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Whooooo.

Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.

3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and
fitting is the key to this game.

F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up
against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.

Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant.

Try using something like this when you get enough money...

[Cormorant, Newbie PvE]
Damage Control I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I

1MN Afterburner I
Small Shield Booster I
Small Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200

125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
125mm Railgun I, Lead Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Notes:

- I made this fit with "skills set to 0" and with Tech 1 mods only.
If you wish to "upgrade" the modules, do so.

- If you have trouble fitting anything, try training up the skills "Engineering" and "CPU Upgrades."
You will find them in the Engineering skill section in your character sheet.

- The Damage Control is a passive modules that increases your ship's resistance to incoming damage.

- The Magnetic Field Stabilizer boosts your firing rate and volley damage

- The Afterburner will give your ship a small boost in speed. It should be sufficient for being able to maintain range over most NPC ships.
However, you should still prioritize the destruction of fast ships just to be sure.

- The Small Shield Booster is pretty self explanatory.

- The Small Capacitor Booster is a module that you load with Cap Booster charges (see: consumable "batteries"). Use this when you are running low on capacitor power.
It is recommended that you try NOT to use this module except when you have no other choice. Get into the habit of micro-managing your modules to conserve capacitor power.
For this fit, the biggest drain on your capacitor is going to be your Shield Booster.

- While not the biggest gun you can buy for this ship, the 125mm Railgun offers a good balance between hitting power, tracking, and fitting cost.
You can downgrade to the 75mm Railgun... which gives you better damage application at shorter ranges and is VERY easy to fit to a ship. But it will come at the cost of range and punching power.
You can also upgrade to the 150mm Railgun which offers lots of range and damage... but it is VERY hard to fit on a ship due to its high CPU and Powergrid needs.

- Ammo is another thing to consider.
Generally speaking, short range ammo hits hardest while long range ammo deals minimal damage.
In your case, Lead ammo offers the "middle ground" in damage and range... and has the added benefit of cutting the capacitor consumption of your guns in half.

- The Collision Rig is optional. It will boost the damage you deal per volley by 10% and is fairly cheap.

How did you Veterans start?
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#76 - 2017-01-01 22:43:52 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Whooooo.

Thank you all for putting up with me. Burning down the hive is now completed.

3rd attempt. You guys are absolutely right. Im totally convinced that training and
fitting is the key to this game.

F-90 Compact Sensor Booster did all the difference. Thats why Ibis stood up
against them too, with only 1 Railgun. LOL.

Could have fitted Magnetic Field Stabilizer too on Cormorant.


Maybe you've still got the final missions to finish. A couple are also hard for new players.

I just finished the SOE arc (again), this time in a Dramiel, which would probably only need about 5M SP in appropriate skills.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2017-01-01 23:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
@ShahFluffers

Thanks for that, yep its important to get that capacitor working for you.

Shipfittings are definitely priority number 1 from now on.


@Avaelica Kuershin

Dragan is going down.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Memphis Baas
#78 - 2017-01-02 03:02:01 UTC
Also, destroyers cannot sig-tank (rely on small size as a defense), because they have frigate armor/shields but BIG size and low agility.

If you're in a mission where they shoot missiles at you, especially cruiser-sized Heavy Missiles, a frigate will take half damage and a destroyer will take full damage. Your destroyer would do more damage, but if you can't survive to apply it, it's better to take a frigate and get the mission done.

Some missions are DPS checks (perfect for destroyer), others are survivability checks (bring a frigate to survive). You've unlocked both ships, bring the correct one for the mission.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2017-01-02 03:23:25 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:

Ofcourse I will find this strange and confusing coming from an MMO
where linear progress was a key factor. It could not be bypassed.

It was crucial to have that half a second faster reload.

What you know and, more importantly, who you know are the key factors. The 10% rat of fire increase on your lazors won't do you any good when your opponent neuts you to zero cap, but your three buddies two systems over will help a bunch.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:

Thats why this game seems unfair when most things are automated
and depending on fittings and skills.

Fitting is an art not a skill. Piloting might be a skill but some people make it look like art also.

We already went over how skill points don't mean nearly as much as most new players think they do. I already told you about how Suitonia on an alt with a couple hundred thousand skill points can beat 3 pilots with at least tens of milllions of skill points in much more expensively fit T2 frigates, so I'm thinking that you aren't talking about skill points.

When you say fitting... There is no best in slot for anything in this game. There is no "best fit" for any ship. There is only good fits for specific situations. In some cases fitting a ship poorly can get you a win because your opponent was assuming that you had a more standard fit.

You choose your fit and you choose when to engage or run. So I'm not really clear on where you are saying this game seems unfair when winning comes down to things completely within your control.

However I will agree with you that this game is indeed not fair. There really is no way to get a truly fair fight in this game. I would go so far as to say that fairness has nothing to do with this game. This game is all about turning the odds in your favor. Making it unfair for your opponent. The only problem is that at the same time you need to make your opponent think that he has the advantage or there won't be a fight.

So it's fair in the sense that everyone is trying to make it unfair for everyone else.

Trasch Taranogas wrote:

You dont have to fly, you dont have to aim, you dont have to shoot.
You are mostly a director of a puppy, so ofcourse there is a huge
learning curve and trying to suggest different approaches should
not be brushed off but atleast considered.

There are a lot of things that I suggested early on for which I was told to let go of and that they were not good ideas for this game. After having played for a while I found out what those other guys were talking about and have since "corrected" other new players for suggestions that I myself made early on.

More importantly I think that trying to give advice on how this game could be made better when you don't even really know how to play it yet seems unproductive. I mean you aren't really wasting much of our time but unproductive for yourself. You can't really learn the subtle ins and outs of this game when your are focusing on what is wrong with it.

Play the game for what it is and learn it as is and then make suggestions once you know more about it. When we tell you that your ideas of how to "improve Eve" are not valid we are not telling you that you are wrong and need to STFU. We are hinting that there is an aspect of what you are suggesting that you don't yet understand and if you just hang in there, we feel, that you will figure it out and understand why it is not that way.

WIth regards to piloting and aiming. You don't have to pilot or aim in the first person sense but you certainly do have to pilot and aim in this game. If you just tell your ship to orbit at optimal and then hit fire you will have trouble winning any PvP engagements. Learn about manual piloting and learn about controlling range. You need to have at least a concept of how to do both of those before you can expect to even survive long in any encounters.
Trasch Taranogas wrote:


Alpha-clones was a big leap and many saw it as blasphemy.

I can only speak for myself on this. I never saw alpha clones as blasphemy or even a bad idea. However I was and still am very unpleased with CCP's decision to market it as F2P when in actuality it is just an unlimited trial, much like WoW being free to level 20.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2017-01-02 03:34:56 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
This is the dogfight game. You can see the size of the ships there, too.


Looking good, too bad VR hasnt taken off yet.

No wonder Eve Online has lost a bit of motherly love
when this project has been the focus.

Actually the CCP devs made the first version of that game pretty much on their own time. CCP has a thing where on Fridays devs can work on what ever they want. It's a goof off day for them. So some of them made the first working version of this game and they showed it at a fan fest a few years back just to show what they could do goofing off.

It was not until fans started asking when it was coming out that CCP even considered developing the game.

As far as VR not taking off yet... CCP has a history of trend setting. They take chances and do some bleeding edge stuff. IMHO they are a huge part of what is pushing the gaming industry. I think that they have way more influence than their market share alone warrants.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli