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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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New Pilot - Security Progression Question
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2017-01-01 17:13:58 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Not really,

Level 1 missions to level 4 missions isn't really progression because there is no compulsion to move on and eventually stop at level 4s or 5s. In most games progression means if you don't "progress" you are gimping (stagnating) yourself. Like continuing to run quests in the newbie zone even after you no longer gain experience for it.

Snipped a bunch here.

Progression really is a word that doesn't mean the same thing in Eve as other games, so NQ&A is the best place to explain the difference.

Progression means the same in EvE as it does every where else in the English speaking world so let us start with a dictionary.
Progression, you can read the definitions here, essentially it is the act of moving from one step or phase of a project or process to the next step. There is a definite "progression" to the missions structure in EvE. one starts at level 1 missions and low standings and "progresses" from mission to mission gaining standing with each one until they can "progress" into level 2 missions. Then they keep repeating this same progressive process until you reach one of the few "end game" things there is in EvE and that is level 5 missions. Yes level 5 missions are end game, there is no level 6 or higher to move on to so for mission runners level 5's are end game content.

Iria Ahrens wrote:
In Eve missions(quests) are income not content.

I really dislike blanket statements like this because they are not true for ALL players. You may consider missions as an income source, I know dozens of players that would disagree with you. Most would tell you that missions are a terrible income source, while others would tell you they are relaxing and enjoyable content and would continue to run them even if CCP removed all ISK and LP payouts.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2017-01-01 17:22:13 UTC
Hakawai wrote:

@ ergherhdfgh
I hope you'll stop reacting to words this way. And allow people whose experience comes from "other MMOs" some time to get used to EVE.

I had someone misinterpret "progression" after my first post here. It wasn't justified, and I found it unwelcoming and quite annoying. Alpha clones provide an opportunity for EVE to expand fast - but it's still a high-threshold game. I think experienced players need to work at seeing the game and its forums from the perspective of new players, rather than expecting the converse.

FWIW, in my case it might have a silver lining, but that's partly because I quite like boisterous forums, and partly because the forums are actually nicer than the last time I played EVE (when the objective of many forum participants to drive new players from the game).

I thank you for your perspective on this. I will keep this in mind on future posts.

I've been working for a while on the language that I use to "help" new players realize what is different about this game from others so that they can more quickly adapt. It can be difficult to find a way to show players a way of looking at things that might be more effective without leaving them feeling "corrected". One of the beauties of Eve is that there is no wrong way to play it.

I will work better on finding ways to communicate my perspective in a manner that hopefully comes off more as being subjective.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2017-01-01 17:51:49 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Progression really is a word that doesn't mean the same thing in Eve as other games, so NQ&A is the best place to explain the difference.

Progression means the same in EvE as it does every where else in the English speaking world so let us start with a dictionary.
Progression, you can read the definitions here, essentially it is the act of moving from one step or phase of a project or process to the next step. There is a definite "progression" to the missions structure in EvE. one starts at level 1 missions and low standings and "progresses" from mission to mission gaining standing with each one until they can "progress" into level 2 missions. Then they keep repeating this same progressive process until you reach one of the few "end game" things there is in EvE and that is level 5 missions. Yes level 5 missions are end game, there is no level 6 or higher to move on to so for mission runners level 5's are end game content.
[/quote]
I enjoy using deffinitions to help make sure that we are all starting from the same point with what we mean on a specific word. I can be very helpful and I believe is in this case.

However definitions eliminate context and emotional baggage that comes with some context.

Many other MMOs are progression based. Meaning that there are inherent mechanics in the game ( some would say the entire focus of the game ) to encourage or force you to move from one level to the next. Not just quest levels but stats and gear scores and raid difficulties etc... In those other games there is an end game as the massive difference between slight changes in level and gear etc.. make it so that characters that are only slightly different can't even play together.

In those games you must "progress" to max level to even be able to play with most other players. If you get a friend into those games they have to "work" at getting to level cap before they can even do any of the fun stuff with you.

In Eve mission levels and DED levels etc... are just a way to give the person running the site or mission an idea of what to expect so they know what kind of equipment to bring. There is no inherent mechanic in this game forcing you to move from DED 1 of 10 to DED 2 0f 10 etc... until DED 10 of 10 sites. You just know that if you are running around in a cruiser which sites that you can handle alone and which sites you'd need to change ships or bring friends.

Likewise if you are looking to do some wormhole combat and you want to solo then you are looking for a C1 or C2. If you have a small fleet of medium ships then you are looking for C3 or C4 and if you have a fleet or large ships with maybe a cap or two in the mix then you are looking for a C5 or C6.

A quantification without inherent movement in a set direction is not progression. A 12 oz cup is bigger than an 8 oz cup which both are smaller than a 16 oz cup. However you order your drink based on how thirsty that you are. You don't order an 8 oz cup the first time and then go back and order a 12 oz etc... I mean you could do that but without some inherent motivation to continue in a specific direction I don't think that it can be called progression.

Further those progression based games have infinite power creep. CCP is constantly nerfing things to make sure that there is no power creep. You can leave the game for years and come back and your cruiser will still be able to do similar stuff.

They very fact that a brand new, day one, player can come into this game and get involved in a huge sov fleet battle and show up on a KM right next to a 10 year vet in the exact same ship is an argument that this is not a progression based game and that there is no inherent progression to this game.

However I realize that we are far off into subjective territory. So I am not saying that you are wrong here. I am just pointing out that neither is Iria
Donnachadh wrote:

Iria Ahrens wrote:
In Eve missions(quests) are income not content.

I really dislike blanket statements like this because they are not true for ALL players. You may consider missions as an income source, I know dozens of players that would disagree with you. Most would tell you that missions are a terrible income source, while others would tell you they are relaxing and enjoyable content and would continue to run them even if CCP removed all ISK and LP payouts.

There is no wrong way to play Eve. As vets all we can do is offer our perspective on what our experience has led us to. New players can take it for what it's worth and either us it or ignore it. I tend to agree with Iria on this as well however I will not claim any rightness on this.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#24 - 2017-01-02 02:11:29 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Progression means the same in EvE as it does every where else in the English speaking world so let us start with a dictionary.
Progression, you can read the definitions here, essentially it is the act of moving from one step or phase of a project or process to the next step.


Sigh,

You're misusing the dictionary. If you read the preface of a dictionary, many don't, then you would realize that dictionaries are reactionary. They only add words and definitions AFTER they are in common use, in "authoritative" sources. This is primarily news broadcasts, magazine articles, and newspapers. They record uses of a word and after the word has penetrated to the point it becomes common, then it is added to the lists of words/definitions to be included in the next iteration of the dictionary.

Thus any argument that claims that a word means only what is cited in a dictionary is automatically wrong. And as I said above, progression in EVE is different than normal progression in other games that basically railroads players onto a given path. Thus, a word usage specific to a single online game will not make it a candidate for inclusion in a dictionary, but that does not make the usage wrong. The dictionary is not a trump card. It is for looking up definitions, not countering other people's word usage, because dictionaries are not exhaustive, even the unabridged dictionary has limits.

Progression in Eve is not set by the game, it is set by the player. A player decides whether they will generate income by doing level 4s, exploring, trading, hauling, scamming, or whatever. But for everything you do in Eve, there is a tradeoff. This is not progression. Progression is better, not sorta better and sorta worse. With progression you level up and get a sword that is better than the last sword you had. In Eve a cruiser is not progression from a frigate, because a cruiser is not unilaterally better than a frigate, and is many ways it is worse. Even Tech 2 is not really progression, because T2 ships are specializations, so again, the ships might be better at something, but the ship will also be worse at some things leaving the tech one ship better overall, or for other roles.


Quote:

I really dislike blanket statements like this because they are not true for ALL players.


It is not true to NEW players. After doing Worlds Collide for the 50th time, or 100th time, it stops being "content" and starts being "income." Telling players that missions are income will help give them the proper perspective so they don't form expectations that only lead to disappointment.

Quote:

(By the way: what's "GD" (mentioned in your earlier post)?)


Sorry, GD = General Discussions. This is NQ&A and I should have reflexively written it out. GD is the black hole of the forums (I exaggerate). Trolling is allowed there to an extent because it is treated under the same rules as system local chat in game, and a bad attitude will get you some seriously trollage, but if you have a good attitude, you will still get trolls, but some people will give your posts some serious consideration.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#25 - 2017-01-02 18:09:42 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Sigh,

You're misusing the dictionary. If you read the preface of a dictionary, many don't, then you would realize that dictionaries are reactionary. They only add words and definitions AFTER they are in common use, in "authoritative" sources. This is primarily news broadcasts, magazine articles, and newspapers. They record uses of a word and after the word has penetrated to the point it becomes common, then it is added to the lists of words/definitions to be included in the next iteration of the dictionary.

While I agree that dictionaries are reactionary in nature taken in the context that they are changed from time to time to keep up with the use of teh languge, that is not important in this context. Given the multi-national nature of the EvE player base and the simple fact that many here are not native English speakers a dictionary is not reactionary it is relatively stable and it is the ONLY means we have of insuring that what we mean is what others interpret when they read our posts.

Iria Ahrens wrote:
Thus any argument that claims that a word means only what is cited in a dictionary is automatically wrong. "

In the context of this mutil-national forum with many people who are not native English speakers you are "automatically wrong" to use a word based on a definition that is not available in the dictionaries that are in common use. An example of this is the word "trap", it is commonly used in the commercial print industry but I doubt you know what it means and you will never find tit listed in a commonly used dictionary of the English language. Based on that definition from the commercial print industry it would be an appropriate word to use in many posts around here. However considering that the definition used in the print industry is not close to those published in a dictionary it is not likely that anyone else would understand my posts if I did use it.

CCP requires the use of English on this section of the forums to facilitate communication, given the international nature of these forums and that many here are not native English speakers it is a logical extension of this to restrict ourselves to definitions that are published in dictionaries that are widely recognized and wide available.

Sir Winston Churchill once wrote the the United States and Great Britain were two great people separated by a common language. When you add in those that are not native English speakers and those who use words based on definitions that are not widely known and may or may not be published in a dictionary confusion can result and we have seen that here on more than one occasion.

Iria Ahrens wrote:
Progression in Eve is not set by the game, it is set by the player.

A progression is a progression, whether it is set by the game or by the player simply does not matter.
Setting that aside in the context of this topic and running security missions in particular you are wrong, this game sets a very rigid progression and it MUST be followed to get from level 1's to level 5's.
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