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When NPCs become detrimental to PVP

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Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#41 - 2016-12-30 18:22:19 UTC
OP. You are suffering from the delusion that combat should take place in a vacuum absent of external factors. You are also suffering from the notion that there is nothing which you can do about it. One of the most fundamental aspects of combat is keeping awareness of your surroundings. If you failed to notice the hostile NPC, or chose to do battle in those areas where they would appear, then guess what? You just gimped your own chances of winning that fight, because, you didn't pay attention to your surroundings.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#42 - 2016-12-30 18:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Jenn aSide wrote:
In Curse I had npcs shoot at me in this same way 2 days ago, guess the guy we were chasing had positive standings to salvation angels. As there was 5 of us and 1 of him, him deliberately warping into a belt where salvation angels were mining in oder to trigger the response fleet to help him was a brilliant move..

Yeah, this is the flip side (and mentioned back on page 1) where leaving the current mechanic as it is, makes sense. It will be interesting to see if players with good standings to NPC use it that way deliberately.

My overall feeling is this mechanic won't be too much of a problem, because players looking to pvp, especially in lowsec, are unlikely to have good standings with the NPC Mining Corps. Nullsec maybe a bit different, but only in NPC null as there aren't many sov systems where there can even be NPC mining fleets to begin with.

PvP in lowsec involves shooting everyone, so in that situation, it's not likely that too many pvpers will have high standings to many NPC Corps, simply because there are so many NPC Corp players that get shot at. Everyone's standings are destroyed anyway.

So I don't have a belief this will affect too much pvp (only time will tell).
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2016-12-30 18:32:13 UTC
Veronica Static wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


I can think of a few solutions to this. The first and most obvious is to check your target before you attack .



I fixed your rather lengthy and wordy post for you. After all. why should they spend the time to recode something you can avoid with 2 clicks of the mouse, to check what corp they're in? You find someone in a situation that isn't in your favor, so what does one do? You find another target. Don't be lazy and it won't be a problem.


That doesn't actually answer the questions..

1) Is it right that only those players in a small number of specific NPC corps should have NPC backup?

2) Should there even be such a thing as NPC backup anywhere outside of High sec?

3) How come players who are in NPC corps get NPC backup and those in player corps don't, is this remotely "fair"(yeah, I know, using the word fair in Eve forums ;P) ?*

4) What effect could this have on casual PvP?

There are plenty of players who mine in high sec in order to make their isk, then come to low sec for PvP. If they now have to be extra careful as to who they can engage (beyond sec hits) so as to insure they don't get a mining ship popped next time they mine in a high sec belt, there is even less incentive to do it. Low sec PvP is tricky enough at times, anything that could drive away casual PvP'ers is bad. Fewer people PvP'ing is never a good outcome.
"Hardcore" pvp'ers may scoff at casuals, but casuals are targets too.


* Before you point out that those in player corps have corp-mates as backup, so do NPC corps. After all NPC corps have quite a few players in them, surely they can help each other if they want to?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#44 - 2016-12-30 18:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Torin Corax wrote:
Veronica Static wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


I can think of a few solutions to this. The first and most obvious is to check your target before you attack .



I fixed your rather lengthy and wordy post for you. After all. why should they spend the time to recode something you can avoid with 2 clicks of the mouse, to check what corp they're in? You find someone in a situation that isn't in your favor, so what does one do? You find another target. Don't be lazy and it won't be a problem.


That doesn't actually answer the questions..

1) Is it right that only those players in a small number of specific NPC corps should have NPC backup?

2) Should there even be such a thing as NPC backup anywhere outside of High sec?

3) How come players who are in NPC corps get NPC backup and those in player corps don't, is this remotely "fair"(yeah, I know, using the word fair in Eve forums ;P) ?*

4) What effect could this have on casual PvP?

There are plenty of players who mine in high sec in order to make their isk, then come to low sec for PvP. If they now have to be extra careful as to who they can engage (beyond sec hits) so as to insure they don't get a mining ship popped next time they mine in a high sec belt, there is even less incentive to do it. Low sec PvP is tricky enough at times, anything that could drive away casual PvP'ers is bad. Fewer people PvP'ing is never a good outcome.
"Hardcore" pvp'ers may scoff at casuals, but casuals are targets too.


* Before you point out that those in player corps have corp-mates as backup, so do NPC corps. After all NPC corps have quite a few players in them, surely they can help each other if they want to?



I am actually finding myself agreeing with something Jann a'Side posted, after getting over that shock lets get to your questions.

1. Good and bad standings with that corp have an impact, not just help for people in that corp.
2. Yes its a living world
3. Your assumption is incorrect, they help people based on standings
4. Just another variable to take into account

Eve should have consequences, does it always seem to me that the only people who cannot have consequences are those that do ganking and PvP, seriously..., it gets a bit tiring to see this. Personally I rather like this as it adds more fun for people who use their brain.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
morion
Lighting Build
#45 - 2016-12-30 18:50:28 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I've never seen a glacier melt, but it happens.
Bear
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#46 - 2016-12-30 18:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dracvlad wrote:
...does it always seem to me that the only people who cannot have consequences are those that do ganking and PvP, seriously..., it gets a bit tiring to see this.


PvPers don't have consequences for their choices? In lowsec?

Maybe your perspective is a bit warped by your hatred of all things gank.

Consequences are great and very much exist in lowsec pvp (and NPC nullsec pvp) where this thread is about.

But overall, if a particular discussion is found tiring, just skip it. It's not compulsory for anyone to take part in discussions here.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#47 - 2016-12-30 19:15:21 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
...does it always seem to me that the only people who cannot have consequences are those that do ganking and PvP, seriously..., it gets a bit tiring to see this.


PvPers don't have consequences for their choices? In lowsec?

Maybe your perspective is a bit warped by your hatred of all things gank.

Consequences are great and very much exist in lowsec pvp (and NPC nullsec pvp) where this thread is about.

But overall, if a particular discussion is found tiring, just skip it. It's not compulsory for anyone to take part in discussions here.


Hatred of gankers, that is a hell of a projection there mate, contempt for their rampant hypocrisy is what I feel, hate no.

Only question 2. seemed to be about lowsec, the rest was generic.

The most important part of this is that it is just another variable in a living breathing universe, seems OK to me, hell I have been calling for random dreads in hisec belts from NPC pirates, will shake things up a bit, but then again you will just belch at me oh you want total safety, personally I hope that they make CONCORD more intelligent and less wham bang, but oh dear I want to protect people. Roll Then someone will come in and say these rewards should not exist in hisec, give me a break...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#48 - 2016-12-30 19:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dracvlad wrote:
... but then again you will just belch at me oh you want total safety, ...

I'm happy with less safety. No problem with managing risk at all.

Your claim that pvpers want no consequences is still just wrong. Consequences are fine and in my experience and interactions, the vast majority of pvpers in this game understand the choice/consequence aspect of the game.
Dungheap
DHCOx
#49 - 2016-12-30 19:24:05 UTC
i looked up one of op's DCM kills , and it seems it was a ratting condor , and guristas were also on the kill mail .

don't you think it was unfair of you to kill him while he was taking npc fire ?

what about npc switching targets and prioritizing gankers due to the use of ewar , is that fair ? i seem to recall a fair bit of tears as people lamented the npc no longer helping them , and in fact now having to deal with the npc switching targets .

pve'r get npc interference while being attacked by players , they deal with it . why shouldn't you ?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#50 - 2016-12-30 19:29:10 UTC
Dungheap wrote:
i looked up one of op's DCM kills , and it seems it was a ratting condor , and guristas were also on the kill mail

Why does a player being in DCM matter here? That's not really relevant to the thread.
ACESsigepps
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2016-12-30 19:38:25 UTC
Stop crying npc's are hurting you.....that tickles me. If you are so concerned about player driven blah blah pvp maybe you should think outside the box and utilize other players to help out or better yet improve your standings with said corp.

Fix standings... having a horrible standing with a NPC mining corp is truely sad.

If you need to remind players EVE is a pvp game, there may be an underlying problem rooted so deeply you tend to ignore the obvious.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#52 - 2016-12-30 19:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
ACESsigepps wrote:
Fix standings... having a horrible standing with a NPC mining corp is truely sad.

From Remiel's OP:

And before you say, "but Rem, the actual solution is to fix your standings and stop killing players in NPC corps." To the first, I say, I'm working on it. Been running lvl 1 missions out of DCM in Hogimo to do just that.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#53 - 2016-12-30 20:20:58 UTC
Standings have always been a stupid game mechanic and will always be so. They need to be removed for good.

Remove standings and insurance.
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#54 - 2016-12-30 20:47:25 UTC
Why should shooting players result in standings loss with an NPC corporation?
I do think that should be changed so only security status is affected if in empire space.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-12-30 21:12:40 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dungheap wrote:
i looked up one of op's DCM kills , and it seems it was a ratting condor , and guristas were also on the kill mail

Why does a player being in DCM matter here? That's not really relevant to the thread.

Actually it matters here, it's the core of OPs point, because killing / podding players in DMC is the only realistic way to wreck standings with this corp, with the mentioned consequences that you are KOS in their belts.

Though I don't like another kind of NPC stacking the odds against the attacker, I have no big problem with having repping NPC for players at their help with good standings, to be clear.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2016-12-30 21:25:59 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Hatred of gankers, that is a hell of a projection there mate, contempt for their rampant hypocrisy is what I feel, hate no.

Only question 2. seemed to be about lowsec, the rest was generic.

The most important part of this is that it is just another variable in a living breathing universe, seems OK to me, hell I have been calling for random dreads in hisec belts from NPC pirates, will shake things up a bit, but then again you will just belch at me oh you want total safety, personally I hope that they make CONCORD more intelligent and less wham bang, but oh dear I want to protect people. Roll Then someone will come in and say these rewards should not exist in hisec, give me a break...


I honestly think we will never see eye to eye on this, and that's ok.

But the irony of calling this a variable in a living breathing universe is distasteful to me. NPC's are not living, they are not breathing, players are.

I for one am someone who doesn't give a damn about NPC Lore or history. For me, Eve lore is the player Lore. GHSC are eve lore, BoB v. Goons are eve lore, Chribba is eve lore and so on. Hell, CODE. are eve lore along with Hulkageddon and burn Jitta.

If CCP want to have interactive NPC's that mess with PvP, let them have it in High sec, the realm of all things NPC. Perhaps, with the acceptance of those that are involved, they can expand on FW to add flavor to that.

But low sec and Null are the areas where players make the game and the lore, I hate the idea of NPC's intruding on this. I don't want NPC lore forced upon me. If players do it then fair game.

Maybe I'm alone in feeling this way, but I've had my fill of games that "impose" lore on the players and came back to Eve because of the importance placed on players having the freedom to create their own content.

All that said, I am absolutely open about the fact that this will impact on how I play the game. I often am part of mining ops in high sec, if my actions in low sec are to have repercussions on my actions in high beyond watching my sec status, then certainly I will adjust my play style. But that just means there is one less potential target in low for those who would hunt me as I hunt others in turn. I find this depressing. I'm a casual player, my time is limited, too much NPC interference in the activities I enjoy is not something I'd like to happen without at least registering my disapproval.

Ultimately, if there are player consequences to my actions in-game, I have no issue with that. I get ganked, scammed, swindled....no problem, that's Eve, that's content. But we already have all the NPC interference that is required in the shape of Concord and Faction police. I honestly do not think that more of this is needed or is beneficial.

Peace.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2016-12-30 21:38:42 UTC
I am an explorer, and I have a -4 standings with my own NPC corp. Might have killed some neutrals along the way, I don't remember.

Standings matter. They have mattered as long as I have been in the game. I have taken care to keep my standings ok with the other Empire factions because I travel to those areas frequently and don't want to have Facpo and Navy on my tail.

Lowsec is still Empire space. You made the choice (by your actions) to be a pirate. Now you live with the repercussions.
Don't like it? Then manage your standings or avoid those situations. Everyone else has the same options.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2016-12-30 21:43:52 UTC
As a note, I also hunted the drifters (including the Battleships). It dawned on me that if CCP evolved the AI far enough that they just might remember that...What?

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries
#59 - 2016-12-30 22:09:28 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As we all know, killing players in an NPC corp results in a standings loss with said NPC corp. I'm not sure how or why it works that way, but up until now, it hasn't really been a huge issue for lowsec dwellers.

However.

Deep Core Mining is one such NPC corp, and it turns out, if you have -5 standings or worse with them, landing in a belt with their mining fleets will result in an immediate NPC response fleet, one of the new improved advanced ones which I actually enjoy to fight, without any aggression. That is, the moment you land, the NPC miners start warping out, and the NPC fleet starts landing and immediately aggros.

This is detrimental to PVP because now we have very player-like NPCs potentially determining the outcome of a player-driven event in what's meant to be a player-driven game. Sure, this has happened before with Guristas potentially jamming out parties in a PVP engagement, but never on this scale.

Now, any engagement in an asteroid belt where NPC miners might suddenly land could be decided by said NPCs instead of players. I don't think this is right for this game.

INB4 "what did you lose". I didn't lose anything to this situation, yet, but when I was testing NPC fleet reactions, I was in a belt alone and had a DCM mining fleet land in the belt I was in, and then immediately warp off followed by an NPC combat fleet, which I evaded. Now imagine if I'd been engaged with a player in that belt, was winning the fight, but he had me scrammed when the NPC response fleet came. Now I've lost a fight because of NPCs.

Is this a player-driven game or not?

I can think of a few solutions to this. The first and most obvious is making adjustments to what corps can spawn mining fleets, and get rid of them in those corps in which players can be a part of. I have fought two DCM mining fleets total, with a corp mate. The vast majority of my negative standings with this corp is due to killing players in it.

Another solution would be to remove the immediate aggression that these NPC corps go to just because you land in their belt, without attacking anything.

And before you say, "but Rem, the actual solution is to fix your standings and stop killing players in NPC corps." To the first, I say, I'm working on it. Been running lvl 1 missions out of DCM in Hogimo to do just that. To the second, no, no one should get this kind of special protection from PVP just because the NPC corp they are in runs mining fleets that can kill a solo PVP'er just by looking in his direction.


For how many years PvPers have benefited for from "predigested" ships with damage already dealt by NPC or that were warp scrambled, jammed or disrupted by NPC?
Now the shoe is on the other feet for a few people, and suddenly the NPC activity become a problem ...
Well, the reply is the same that was always given when PvErs were lamenting that situation: "Deal with it."

You have destroyed your standing, yours is the problem.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#60 - 2016-12-30 22:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Torin Corax wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Hatred of gankers, that is a hell of a projection there mate, contempt for their rampant hypocrisy is what I feel, hate no.

Only question 2. seemed to be about lowsec, the rest was generic.

The most important part of this is that it is just another variable in a living breathing universe, seems OK to me, hell I have been calling for random dreads in hisec belts from NPC pirates, will shake things up a bit, but then again you will just belch at me oh you want total safety, personally I hope that they make CONCORD more intelligent and less wham bang, but oh dear I want to protect people. Roll Then someone will come in and say these rewards should not exist in hisec, give me a break...


I honestly think we will never see eye to eye on this, and that's ok.

But the irony of calling this a variable in a living breathing universe is distasteful to me. NPC's are not living, they are not breathing, players are.

I for one am someone who doesn't give a damn about NPC Lore or history. For me, Eve lore is the player Lore. GHSC are eve lore, BoB v. Goons are eve lore, Chribba is eve lore and so on. Hell, CODE. are eve lore along with Hulkageddon and burn Jitta.

If CCP want to have interactive NPC's that mess with PvP, let them have it in High sec, the realm of all things NPC. Perhaps, with the acceptance of those that are involved, they can expand on FW to add flavor to that.

But low sec and Null are the areas where players make the game and the lore, I hate the idea of NPC's intruding on this. I don't want NPC lore forced upon me. If players do it then fair game.

Maybe I'm alone in feeling this way, but I've had my fill of games that "impose" lore on the players and came back to Eve because of the importance placed on players having the freedom to create their own content.

All that said, I am absolutely open about the fact that this will impact on how I play the game. I often am part of mining ops in high sec, if my actions in low sec are to have repercussions on my actions in high beyond watching my sec status, then certainly I will adjust my play style. But that just means there is one less potential target in low for those who would hunt me as I hunt others in turn. I find this depressing. I'm a casual player, my time is limited, too much NPC interference in the activities I enjoy is not something I'd like to happen without at least registering my disapproval.

Ultimately, if there are player consequences to my actions in-game, I have no issue with that. I get ganked, scammed, swindled....no problem, that's Eve, that's content. But we already have all the NPC interference that is required in the shape of Concord and Faction police. I honestly do not think that more of this is needed or is beneficial.

Peace.


It is perfectly fine, I respect your point of view because you said it honestly and I do understand where you are coming from, I have lost ships and kills due to NPC's a number of times when doing PvP, and it was annoying as hell.

Also I don't want the lore imposed on me, but I want to respect the lore too, and I understand where you and the OP are coming from, artificial barriers to play is a pain, which is why I don't like and have never liked CONCORD. And I hope that this AI can reduce the god like power of CONCORD...

I have not looked at the NPC fleet in detail, I did see one in hisec before it was nerfed blow up someone who attacked the mining ships, but if it adds to the fun, the fear the buzz and the shakes, another variable to use or lose from, then for me it would be a good thing as long as it was not over powered as hell so you feared the NPC more than the player which can be an issue. I had treated it mentally as being the same as Gate guns in lowsec which people deal with, but I am not playing games by saying that to belittle your point because it does reduce your options at times and having something like that with the impact on small ships in belts is a major bind too, but they are not in all the belts.

I hope it does not have too great an impact on your fun and that you can find some way to minimize it and use it, but you are quite correct to state your disapproval. There are many players who want different things from Eve, I like a more living breathing universe with AI that actually means something, it is a difficult balance to get right. Which is why I always go on about getting the balance right, and for this one it has to be that CCP do not make this over-powering.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp