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Are mining permits actually a thing?

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Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2016-12-30 14:35:30 UTC
Professor Sternu Tarantoga wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Minerphobia then...


You can translate that as "hating miners" or " beeing afraid of miners". I would rather say CODE. is kind of obsessed with miners. That would be "minermania" then.

Exoryxiphilia has a nice ring to it. Though it's mining not miner. Miner doesn't translate well.
Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#62 - 2016-12-30 14:38:30 UTC
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-12-30 14:46:14 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.


Why do you specify new players? CODE. are more focused on barges, exhumers and freighters than anything. How many 'new' players can fly those? For the record, CCP recently did a study which suggests that new players who are exposed to PVP early by virtue of losing ships to it are more likely to stick around for longer. I am but one person who can testify to the truth of this, having been encouraged to learn to PVP and extend my subscription back in 2012 after losing a mining Navitas in Seyllin as a very new player.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2016-12-30 14:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Lena Crews wrote:
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.

The same could be said about mining in highsec - it's not challenging, it's not profitable, and it's not a public service. Yet, I would go out on a limb and say that much more people mine than gank in highsec.

But what makes you think they are targeting new players? And what makes you think it's not profitable?

I've just taken a look at their killboard. There are new-ish pilots (down to about a month) among the barges they gank, but many of them are several years old. The pattern that I do see, is, that most of them drop only between 5-10M, but they have nothing in their mid slots, and a whole low rack full of MLUs - no damage control. So they can be popped by just one catalyst, and still yield a profit. So, I would go as far as to actually call this a public service. If players still fit their barges that way, they need to be taught why this is a bad idea.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2016-12-30 15:02:00 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.

The same could be said about mining in highsec - it's not challenging, it's not profitable, and it's not a public service. Yet, I would go out on a limb and say that much more people mine than gank in highsec.

But what makes you think they are targeting new players? And what makes you think it's not profitable?

I've just taken a look at their killboard. There are new-ish pilots (down to about a month) among the barges they gank, but many of them are several years old. The pattern that I do see, is, that most of them drop only between 5-10M, but they have nothing in their mid slots, and a whole low rack full of MLUs - no damage control. So they can be popped by just one catalyst, and still yield a profit. So, I would go as far as to actually call this a public service. If players still fit their barges that way, they need to be taught why this is a bad idea.


Doesn't help that the miners got this fool idea in their head that yield trumps all. Never thought that yield you can bring home is better than the 20% more yield you can't bring home. Suggest removing one mining laser upgrade for one DCU and they will probably start complaining about less yield.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#66 - 2016-12-30 15:03:44 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.


Why do you specify new players? CODE. are more focused on barges, exhumers and freighters than anything. How many 'new' players can fly those? For the record, CCP recently did a study which suggests that new players who are exposed to PVP early by virtue of losing ships to it are more likely to stick around for longer. I am but one person who can testify to the truth of this, having been encouraged to learn to PVP and extend my subscription back in 2012 after losing a mining Navitas in Seyllin as a very new player.


All high-sec afk miners are "new". I consider myself new. Killing me isn't all that challenging. Perhaps "carebear" or "clueless" would be a better descriptor.

I'm just saying the CODE form of PVP doesn't make sense to me.

I think I understand PvP for profit. I think I understand PvP for the fun of the fight. But I can't see how ganking a solo AFK miner in high sec gives you either of these things. Chances are they won't react to your attack until they're dead. It feels very much like killing rats... except the rats have better AI than AFK players.

In low sec/null/WH... the players all expect that danger could come for them. They may be easy kills... but you are actually pitting yourself against a person who is trying to escape or fight back. I can understand the enjoyment in that sort of confrontation.

Keep in mind... I don't MIND that they're doing what they're doing. Doesn't bother me at all. I just don't understand why they get any fun out of it. It just seems... boring.

Maybe it's people freaking out in local afterwards. I guess I can see how that might be motivating for them.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2016-12-30 15:11:47 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:
Maybe it's people freaking out in local afterwards. I guess I can see how that might be motivating for them.

Probably that, as well as death threats via Eve mail, funny posts on the forums, and all sorts of ineffective anti-ganking efforts that pop up every now and then.

It's not actually my cup of tea either, but considering this game is full of people performing dull and repetitive tasks day in and day out, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Ganking barges still seems to be more entertaining than mining or running missions or ratting. At least you will encounter people in the process and can roleplay a bit.
Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#68 - 2016-12-30 15:14:16 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:
I have no problem with CODE... but I don't understand them either.

Suicide ganking new players who are mining just seems... odd. It's not challenging... and it's not profitable. It also isn't a public service (like killing bot miners is).

It's fine... just like the people who put cans outside of stations where a new player will take stuff and blowing them up is fine... but I just don't get why they enjoy it. Their mindset is foreign to me.

The same could be said about mining in highsec - it's not challenging, it's not profitable, and it's not a public service. Yet, I would go out on a limb and say that much more people mine than gank in highsec.

But what makes you think they are targeting new players? And what makes you think it's not profitable?

I've just taken a look at their killboard. There are new-ish pilots (down to about a month) among the barges they gank, but many of them are several years old. The pattern that I do see, is, that most of them drop only between 5-10M, but they have nothing in their mid slots, and a whole low rack full of MLUs - no damage control. So they can be popped by just one catalyst, and still yield a profit. So, I would go as far as to actually call this a public service. If players still fit their barges that way, they need to be taught why this is a bad idea.



From what I've been told (I'm no expert), efficient mining in high sec is fairly profitable (not a huge difference compared to low sec and null sec).

If it's actually profitable then it makes sense. But what on earth do they drop that is worth 5-10 mil? Strip miners/MLU's? I guess I can see losing a 1.5-2 mil fitted catalyst for a 3-6 mil profit... but again with the player AFK anyway that less challenging than shooting rats at a belt... and you're probably going to make way less.

The more I consider it... they must just love watching their victims have meltdowns.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2016-12-30 15:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Mining in high sec is profitable in the sense that you will make money, but not a lot, really. The appeal is, that it doesn't take a lot of your attention and can be done on many accounts at once. But then you "invest" a PLEX's worth to make 20M/h for every one of these accounts. Personally, I'd rather just sell that PLEX on the market and do something interesting with it. And of course you have to factor in the gankers if you antitank, which most miners in highsec do for reasons unbeknownst to me.

So, yeah, I don't get the appeal of miner ganking, but I don't get mining either.

On the profitability of ganking - A single Modulated Strip Miner II goes for 4M in Jita, and a barge has 2. An MLU II goes for 800-900k, and the typical barge they gank has 3. Add to that 5 Hobgoblin IIs or even Mining Drone IIs at 400k or 800k a pop.

So, assuming 50% drop, they'll find 5M on average in every barge, and they can collect the drones for 2-4M. And quite a few of them have deadspace small shield boosters or other useless shiny modules as well as meta MLUs for whatever reason, so occasionally they'll loot 50M or more. Ganking barges certainly pays for itself and then some. And if they get to collect the fee for the mining permit, which does happen, all the better!
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2016-12-30 15:37:23 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:



From what I've been told (I'm no expert), efficient mining in high sec is fairly profitable (not a huge difference compared to low sec and null sec).

If it's actually profitable then it makes sense. But what on earth do they drop that is worth 5-10 mil? Strip miners/MLU's? I guess I can see losing a 1.5-2 mil fitted catalyst for a 3-6 mil profit... but again with the player AFK anyway that less challenging than shooting rats at a belt... and you're probably going to make way less.

The more I consider it... they must just love watching their victims have meltdowns.


As a guess..

1) Some are doing it because they are making money at it, some are not

2) Some are doing it because they are role players, some are not.

3) Some are doing it because they are "Fad-followers", some are not.

4) Some are doing it because they get a lot of satisfaction from the Local/ forum whining, some are not.

5) Some are doing it because they are old-school bot-hunters (and only gank those they believe to be botting), some are not.

6) Some are doing it because it's what their buddies are doing, and they want to play with their buddies, some are not.

Ultimately they are all probably doing it because they can, and it's fun, so why not.Big smile

Eve is a great game.
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2016-12-30 16:30:16 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:


All high-sec afk miners are "new". I consider myself new. Killing me isn't all that challenging. Perhaps "carebear" or "clueless" would be a better descriptor.

I'm just saying the CODE form of PVP doesn't make sense to me.

I think I understand PvP for profit. I think I understand PvP for the fun of the fight. But I can't see how ganking a solo AFK miner in high sec gives you either of these things. Chances are they won't react to your attack until they're dead. It feels very much like killing rats... except the rats have better AI than AFK players.

In low sec/null/WH... the players all expect that danger could come for them. They may be easy kills... but you are actually pitting yourself against a person who is trying to escape or fight back. I can understand the enjoyment in that sort of confrontation.

Keep in mind... I don't MIND that they're doing what they're doing. Doesn't bother me at all. I just don't understand why they get any fun out of it. It just seems... boring.

Maybe it's people freaking out in local afterwards. I guess I can see how that might be motivating for them.


My word, this thread still has some life in it?!

I can't deal with all your points Lena, but a couple of things spring immediately to mind.

Many, many of the actual miners killed in Highsec are Nullsec players mining (or AFK-ing) on alts. It's precisely because of the alleged dangers of Nullsec that they're prepared to come up to visit us.

As for the 'why?' Well, that's quite a story. Perhaps different gankers have different reasons. My own is staunchly wedded to the contents of the New Halaima Code of Conduct, which sets out ideal behaviour for all Highsec-dwellers. The other is the wish to preserve non-consensual PvP in Highsec, in the face of quite stern opposition from assorted carebears and non-playing pundits.

minerbumping

New Order Audio Archive

NEW! MinerBumping Video Vault
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2016-12-30 16:32:33 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:



From what I've been told (I'm no expert), efficient mining in high sec is fairly profitable (not a huge difference compared to low sec and null sec).

If it's actually profitable then it makes sense. But what on earth do they drop that is worth 5-10 mil? Strip miners/MLU's? I guess I can see losing a 1.5-2 mil fitted catalyst for a 3-6 mil profit... but again with the player AFK anyway that less challenging than shooting rats at a belt... and you're probably going to make way less.

The more I consider it... they must just love watching their victims have meltdowns.


As a guess..

1) Some are doing it because they are making money at it, some are not

2) Some are doing it because they are role players, some are not.

3) Some are doing it because they are "Fad-followers", some are not.

4) Some are doing it because they get a lot of satisfaction from the Local/ forum whining, some are not.

5) Some are doing it because they are old-school bot-hunters (and only gank those they believe to be botting), some are not.

6) Some are doing it because it's what their buddies are doing, and they want to play with their buddies, some are not.

Ultimately they are all probably doing it because they can, and it's fun, so why not.Big smile

Eve is a great game.


That's actually a well-conceived and executed post.

minerbumping

New Order Audio Archive

NEW! MinerBumping Video Vault
Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#73 - 2016-12-30 16:37:40 UTC
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:


All high-sec afk miners are "new". I consider myself new. Killing me isn't all that challenging. Perhaps "carebear" or "clueless" would be a better descriptor.

I'm just saying the CODE form of PVP doesn't make sense to me.

I think I understand PvP for profit. I think I understand PvP for the fun of the fight. But I can't see how ganking a solo AFK miner in high sec gives you either of these things. Chances are they won't react to your attack until they're dead. It feels very much like killing rats... except the rats have better AI than AFK players.

In low sec/null/WH... the players all expect that danger could come for them. They may be easy kills... but you are actually pitting yourself against a person who is trying to escape or fight back. I can understand the enjoyment in that sort of confrontation.

Keep in mind... I don't MIND that they're doing what they're doing. Doesn't bother me at all. I just don't understand why they get any fun out of it. It just seems... boring.

Maybe it's people freaking out in local afterwards. I guess I can see how that might be motivating for them.


My word, this thread still has some life in it?!

I can't deal with all your points Lena, but a couple of things spring immediately to mind.

Many, many of the actual miners killed in Highsec are Nullsec players mining (or AFK-ing) on alts. It's precisely because of the alleged dangers of Nullsec that they're prepared to come up to visit us.

As for the 'why?' Well, that's quite a story. Perhaps different gankers have different reasons. My own is staunchly wedded to the contents of the New Halaima Code of Conduct, which sets out ideal behaviour for all Highsec-dwellers. The other is the wish to preserve non-consensual PvP in Highsec, in the face of quite stern opposition from assorted carebears and non-playing pundits.



Non-consensual PVP is fine. Again, I have no problem with what CODE is doing.

I just have trouble seeing the fun in it. PvP with afk players seems like it wouldn't be enjoyable. It literally is the only kind of combat that seems LESS fun than shooting NPC rats/missioning... because at least the rats have an AI. The miners just sit there and do nothing while you kill them.

Ganking a hauler who's trying to avoid it... well there's a contest there. You're ganking... he's trying to not be ganked. Even jumping a mission runner works... because he's going to try to get away (although some AFK mission running happens I supposed).

I'm not criticizing you... if you want to kill AFK miners... have at it. I just don't GET it. It seems almost as boring as the mining itself is.
Yarosara Ruil
#74 - 2016-12-30 17:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
My honest belief is that killing miners taps into the same primal cruelty humans have.

That kid that rips the wings off flies? That burns off ants with a magnifier? Kicking a puppy? Calling a kid fat? That's what ganking is all about, done in a safe judgment free enviroment, and often encouraged, where the worst thing that happens is another person losing their internet spaceship and get their feelings hurt.

To some, its all about enacting cruelty and watch someone deal with their helplessness over the misery inflicted on them. Some handle it poorly, and we call that "tears".
Tara Kaos
Doomheim
#75 - 2016-12-30 17:58:14 UTC
Thursday Park-Laine wrote:
10 Mil. is cheap. Just buy it, read the Code, don't AFK mine and tell us if it worked out for you.


Or ya know just get insurance and realize ganks happen move on with your life...

Mining AFK just like anything else is a risk, ganks will happen. Always follow the rule never undock anything you cant afford to lose. If i spend an hour in my current ship I pull in 3-5 mil replacing my ship with insurance costs about 2 mil. Its much more economical to not pay and then replace my ship if i get ganked.
Akali Mid
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2016-12-30 18:01:45 UTC
Just pay the permit and follow the code of halaima is my advice.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2016-12-30 18:09:53 UTC
HadleysHope wrote:
Just returned to the game after a lonngg time away and got blown up by a guy who mailed me saying he'd done it because I didnt have a mining permit.

I mean I guess if we have to buy them then fair enough but from what I have read so far these permits can be cancelled if you exhibit 'bot-aspirant' behavior (which apparently I did). I immediately tried to warp out but im flying a mining barge so....

Anyways, I get that being jumped is part of the game so is it worth buying a permit if it can be cancelled via a spurious loophole. What do you fine people do?


Never but a permit for anything in EVE. Period. Just tank you ship properly, or fly a Procurer/Skiff and they'll probably leave you alone. The second anything even thinks of shooting back CODE. runs like the b*tches they are.

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Lena Crews
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#78 - 2016-12-30 18:13:28 UTC
Akali Mid wrote:
Just pay the permit and follow the code of halaima is my advice.


Doesn't sound like good advice.

Mainly because if they are at their keyboards (thus following the code)... they really don't need to pay for a permit.

Either avoid AFK mining... in which case the permit is not needed... or take the risk of AFK mining... in which case the permit doesn't help you at all. I fail to see any reason to ever get a permit.
Tara Kaos
Doomheim
#79 - 2016-12-30 18:26:23 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:
Akali Mid wrote:
Just pay the permit and follow the code of halaima is my advice.


Doesn't sound like good advice.

Mainly because if they are at their keyboards (thus following the code)... they really don't need to pay for a permit.

Either avoid AFK mining... in which case the permit is not needed... or take the risk of AFK mining... in which case the permit doesn't help you at all. I fail to see any reason to ever get a permit.


THIS x1000

I have seen many CODE enthusiasts claim they are not extortionists. Well if I don't afk mine but don't pay for a license and they gank me obviously they are.

For the record I don't have a problem with extortion that's why this is a sandbox game. I'm just saying call it what it is. Hell if it was a protection racket i might even be inclined to pay for protection at the right price. Seems like it could be worth it.

IMO CODE are just a bunch of trolls, don't feed them with ISK or tears. Accept your gank and move on with your life.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#80 - 2016-12-30 18:34:35 UTC
CODE. are a pack of morons trying to be relevant led by the clown prince of New Eden who lacks the balls or foresight to actually do anything vaguely impressive. They'll irun like little kids the second you look like fighting back.

Ignore 'em, don't mine around the Uedama/Halaima systems, don't pay their pathetic extortion racket and don't feed their trollish egos.

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