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Is MTU killing harrasment?
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Salvos Rhoska
#41 - 2016-12-29 21:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
“We’re preprogrammed to reach out,” Dr. de Waal writes.
“Empathy is an automated response over which we have limited control.
” The only people emotionally immune to another’s situation, he notes, are psychopaths.


But now today one can online, virtually, anonymously, be anyone one chooses/wants to be.

The assumption of an alter-ego, categorically bypasses ones own ego system.

This is categorically demonstrated in EVE, where people commit acts they would find otherwise unconscionable in their IRL.

Im not personally a fan of the automatic empathetic capacity/response theorem. Ive seen and experienced far too many indicators/conditions against it. No conflict or struggle, is empathetic. There is always a victor, and a loser.

The extent of empathetic response in such case, is arbitrary in humans.
Some animal species merely posture, some fight, others, rarely to death.
But for humans, the empathetic response has been sidelined by millennia of inter-conflicr hy individuals with little to nothing to gain from winning except walking out alive.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2016-12-29 21:58:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
“We’re preprogrammed to reach out,” Dr. de Waal writes.
“Empathy is an automated response over which we have limited control.
” The only people emotionally immune to another’s situation, he notes, are psychopaths.


But now, today one can online, virtually, anonymously, be anyone one chooses/wants to be.

The assumption of an alter-ego, categorically bypasses ones own ego system.

This is categorically demonstrated in EVE, where people commit acts they would find otherwise unconscionable in their IRL.

Im not personally a fan of the automatic empathetic capacity/response theorem. Ive seen and experienced far too many indicators/conditions against it. No conflict or struggle, is empathetic. There is always a victor, and a loser.




True, we can do the "forbidden" stuff in the world wide interweb.

Trolls (really harmful suicide urging ones) are the most notorious example.

Well, I might not prosper in this game but I will have an hard time
being malicious.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Salvos Rhoska
#43 - 2016-12-29 22:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
In an unrestricted system, beset by antagonists on all sides, and sublimated from IRL into an online persona:
-Do everything and anything it takes to survive.
-Once survival is no longer an issue, decadence sets in, unless improved by a greater purpose.

The "Bonus Room" situation was a real cancer and extremely alarming, as well as elucidating, of human behavior in these new virtual/anonymous systems.

Ironically, virtual spaces (as unreal) and anonymity (as alter-egos) are teaching us more about ourselves than reality ever has.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2016-12-29 22:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Do everything and anything it takes to survive.


This behavior is easily understood, and thus isn't particularly interesting. But how does 'being a douchebag and getting off on it, just because I can' fit into doing anything and everything it takes to survive?

EDIT: You edited with the retort, without even seeing this post:
Quote:

Once survival is no longer an issue, decadence sets in, unless improved by a greater purpose.


I don't know anything about the 'bonus room.' I guess I have some googling to do.
Madeline Rene
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-12-29 22:30:51 UTC
Akis Talanas wrote:
Just a simple question because i find it surely is....

And what about stealing the mission related item?
Both are not "PVP actions" they are just intended to ruin the mission for the missionrunner....and this is no pvp
Sure one can "rebuy" the mission critical object....even in space from the thief....

But this is one of the things that really goes to far in my eyes and should be banned.....

And killing a mtu?
I mean...why?
Just because you can?
Great reasoning.....at least wait if someone picks it up......

Both actions are -as said- no pvp and should stop because there is no other sense in it than the pure definition of harrasment.....



as a person who goes around killing the things, from time to time... i have to say a few things.

1. it's pvp, because the mtu belongs to a player. It's not like the action doesnt have a risk, the person doing it gets a suspect status, and is free to kill for anyone, not just the missioner/mtu owner.

2. i have taken the mission item, the easiest one is the damsel... because i can. Its a method to provoke a fight. You want it back, TAKE it back. Heck, i'll even drop it in a can for you. come get it.

3. Both actions are pvp--the first is easy to see, because it's a player object in space receiving aggression by a player, pvp. The second, taking a mission item, is harder for some to see, but it's an action that looks to provoke a player to engage an other player. pvp.

4. i will keep doing all of the above, untill or unless the person becomes aware of pvp and aggression mechanics. It's not harassment, it's teaching.

and now a short story. My first day of going out to kill mtus to provoke a fight out of a mission runner was off to a slow start. I agressed, and killed, 3 mtu's and didnt get a fight out of any of them. I didnt expect a fight, honestly, i was in a ship anyone should know would kill them. i struck gold on the 4th one, some one was 3 days into the game, and in a battle cruiser doin lvl 4's... clearly they bought their way to where they are. I jumped in, and it was damsel in distress lvl 4, a mission i do about 3 times a day on my mission alts. I killed his mtu, he didnt agress. So, i watched him kill the first wave of rats in the mission... then .. i decided to kill the pleasure garden--spawn EVERYthing. I did it, and mjd'd out before my tank failed. He had no idea what i did, and sat there trying to kill them all... he died. I got his loot, about 200m worth of deadspace and faction stuff. Totally worth it. Totally 'pvp' even if HE didnt know what the heck was going on. I did. Maybe hell learn from it, maybe he rage quit, i dont care.
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#46 - 2016-12-29 22:34:01 UTC
No
Salvos Rhoska
#47 - 2016-12-29 22:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Do everything and anything it takes to survive.


This behavior is easily understood, and thus isn't particularly interesting. But how does 'being a douchebag and getting off on it, just because I can' fit into doing anything and everything it takes to survive?


"Survival" is the key term here.

Survival for such a person that, genuinely, exclusively, receives gratification in their own life only by causing suffering in others, is logically dependent on causing that.

These are pathological persons with severe personality disorders.

However, in EVE, there can exist a simulacrum of otherwise well adjusted, healthy persons exploring their options by the same means as the above.

As with almost all PC/console games, they allow us an opportunity to step outside our own reality. They are infact designed to do so. Chess is an intellectual escape, and then BattleChess became a game with graphics to corroborate it with horrific death scenes of destroyed pieces.

Games are increasingly an escape from our own reality.
A chance to do and be something else.
Succeed somewhere else.
A means of survival.
In EVE , especially.

IRL constrains us, but in games, we can be gods.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#48 - 2016-12-29 23:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
I sincerely doubt many eve players actually 'get off on being a douchebag' but as I said in my last post eve has a different set of rules.

Nothing belongs to you unless it is in your station hanger. Your MTU, it's in space and able to be shot; those are game mechanics so you better be within distance to come pick it up if it's attacked. Your mission loot, it isn't yours. Sure the mission spawned because of you, and you need that loot, but you have to take it from NPC or player. This is a game where you have to take everything and nothing will be laid out for you, it's always been that way.

Most of us are able to acknowledge eve is a game with it's own set of acceptable behaviour, that doesn't make us sociopaths. I wouldn't scam my grandmother in real life, but if you send me isk I will gladly double it.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Memphis Baas
#49 - 2016-12-30 00:39:56 UTC
People can get off on being douchebags because of the group mentality. It is a social game, we like to fit in with the corp., and the corp. values "extracting tears" or other such "fun", so you try to out-do them, and feel good when they congratulate you for it.

Not everybody does it; as a matter of fact, count the people that you see doing it, and compare to the total player-base of 100,000 or so people.

But, being nice doesn't get you anything in a PVP game, or in war.

The example a few posts up with being repeatedly killed on the undock... imagine this scenario: you play chess, you make a move, and for whatever reason the other person takes your pawn. Don't know why, who knows what they're thinking. Make the move again, they take the pawn again. Repeat many times. In your head, the loss of the pawn is pointless; in his head, he's trying to demonstrate some lesson about chess to you, and you're just not getting it.

In any case, neither one of you is a douche. The game allows a move, and both of you are just repeating that move, for whatever different reasons, until one gets bored.

Killing MTU's and stealing the mission container are moves that are allowed by the game. If it makes you feel better to think of them as douchebags, that's fine, feel free to. They probably couldn't care less, and most of us probably don't care about the loss of your MTU to some pirate. Not with a war happening, or our station under attack, or major loss on the markets due to a patch by CCP, or whatever; we have our own problems and don't care much about yours.
Kosomot
Player Vs Ore
Miners Of Independence
#50 - 2016-12-30 01:18:43 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
OP, have we met?
Just curious.

In my slow times I subside off of a steady diet of MTU's and liberated Damsels.


You soloed a raven in a (navy)frigate? https://zkillboard.com/kill/54492144/
Guess those were some delicious tears.





HAHA!!!! I'm a Carebear and that warms my heart.

OMG that must have been some rage...

I remember this one time at World's Collide, when i was running it in a PVE fit tengu, and it was all I had, and this legion showed up and taught me a lesson about EVE.

If i ever meet that person at EVE Fest I will shake his hand.

I am a miner, mission runner, and explorer...

or as EVE Online would have it...

A Carebear!!
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#51 - 2016-12-30 02:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
The Navy Comet is a sexy beast of a ship.
That is all I have to say on that matter.

And the hat... in retrospect not so great. Was trying to be festive and instead look like a frat boy pizza driver.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#52 - 2016-12-30 02:20:27 UTC
Akis Talanas wrote:
Just a simple question because i find it surely is....

And what about stealing the mission related item?
Both are not "PVP actions" they are just intended to ruin the mission for the missionrunner....and this is no pvp
Sure one can "rebuy" the mission critical object....even in space from the thief....

But this is one of the things that really goes to far in my eyes and should be banned.....

And killing a mtu?
I mean...why?
Just because you can?
Great reasoning.....at least wait if someone picks it up......

Both actions are -as said- no pvp and should stop because there is no other sense in it than the pure definition of harrasment.....

Have you ever tried to stifle a laugh and uttered a very unsexy snort?

Yeah, that is what happened when I read this...

MTU destruction is NOT harrassment. I have killed around 50 or so of them, some of them from the same pilot over and over. If you deploy your MTU or ship, be prepared to protect what you think is yours.

THAT is Eve Online.

Hello Kitty World is that way ----->

Thank you, have a nice day...drive through please...
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#53 - 2016-12-30 02:21:47 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
...and instead look like a frat boy pizza driver.

Oh...

I thought that was the look you were trying to go for...

Shocked
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2016-12-30 05:46:27 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:

Killing MTU's and stealing the mission container are moves that are allowed by the game. If it makes you feel better to think of them as douchebags, that's fine, feel free to.


Just to make sure I wasn't misunderstood, I did not state that someone who shoots an MTU or steals a mission container is a douchebag - I'd have to know more particulars to make that judgement. I merely advised the OP that there are many douchebags who play this game, and he can and will run into them.

As to whether someone is a douchebag for doing something like shooting at an MTU, it depends on the motivation of the person. Is the person in the MTU manufacturing business, therefore the more MTUs destroyed, the more ISK he makes? If so, perfectly fine rationale and motivation, although I highly doubt he could destroy enough to dent the market, and his time would be better spent making ISK in other ways. Or, is he doing it merely to annoy the other guy, just to see the look on his face? Just to be a 'douche' for lack of better words?

I'm not well-versed on what possible gains someone could have for stealing a mission container. If it could be sold for value, sounds perfectly legit. If the theft could somehow deny a rival something of strategic importance, sounds perfectly legit, although in the case of mission running, hard to see how this would apply. But there are certainly cases where the player's only motivation is to be a jerk and get off on it while doing so.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#55 - 2016-12-30 07:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Sometimes mission ships can drop hundreds of millions in modules when they finally go poof, sometimes not so much.

Swiping a metal scrap can trigger an engagement, but it's unlikely.
Shooting an MTU increases the chances of it happening significantly.
Stealing the Damsel or other mission critical object yields even better results.

It has its risks. Sometimes the runner calls for help, sometimes you can't crack their tank, and sometimes they beat the holy howling hell out of you... and you end up scarpering off in a fireball that resembles a ship, or just in a pod.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Keno Skir
#56 - 2016-12-30 07:33:51 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
I bore of wanna-be internet 'tough guys' telling other people 'Eve is not for them' just because they disagree on something. My take? Yes, poster, 'Eve is for you' up and until you personally decide that it isn't - no sooner, and no later.

Now, on to the topic at hand. You should be advised that there is quite a bit of douche-baggery in this game, perpetrated by quite a number of associated douche bags. Basically, the deal is, there are sociopaths who play this game. Most of them probably don't act the way in real life that they do in this game (they'd punched in the face on a regular basis), but anonymity protects them.

I don't mind PvP at all, or what I'd consider 'rational' game play. For instance, stealing from you could be considered entirely rational. So could blowing up your ship for some particular reason. But I often see simply 'mindless' shooting of anything that moves for no reason whatsoever, and totally irrational gameplay. Either that, or worse - people purposefully being douchebags.

The other week I was undocking out of a station in a shuttle. Some guy camping behind the station in a tornado just one-shotted my shuttle and pod (no implants, heh). I respawned in a nearby station and thought 'I wonder why he did that?' and decided to study this particular clone. So I went back to the station, docked, made it my home station, and undocked again. BOOM! Respawned inside the station, undocked again, BOOM! I kept this up for an hour, just wondering how long he'd go, and what motivated him. After an hour or so, he left. I guess he blew me up well over 100 times. Did he profit? No. Was he achieving some strategic objective? No. He was just a ******, or worse, a douchebag.

After that episode I considered advertising a service catering to retards of this type. "Come blow me up! Hundreds of times! All day long! On these particular days (listed)! All for the low price of X!" Might could make money with this idea, if the perpetrators are just mindless simpletons shooting at anything that moves. But I wouldn't have takers if the perpetrators are sociopaths who simply enjoy being douchebags.

Anyway, am I for banning this kind of stuff? Nah, not necessary. We don't need to police any and every action that there is. Just toughen-up, my friend. Next time someone shoots your MTU you could take a page out of my book. Buy another one and stick it in the same place, let him blow that one up. Then do it again, and again - see how long he lasts. Of course that could get expensive, but....


Pretty sure he had his reasons for blowing you up.. You sound upset though maybe you should take your own advice and harden up.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#57 - 2016-12-30 08:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Beast of Revelations wrote:
I merely advised the OP that there are many douchebags who play this game, and he can and will run into them...there are certainly cases where the player's only motivation is to be a jerk and get off on it while doing so.


How do you know a players motivation? And what exactly is wrong with the motivation being boredom in the first place? If I destroy a ship in lowsec or WH space, then nobody has a problem with that. They accept eve is a game where you can lose what you are flying and what is in your cargo. If I go to highsec and help gank a freighter, how is that suddenly 'douchebag' behaviour? I admit, I don't gank much because I don't much like the idea of losing my ship to concord. So it works to keep highsec safer, but never perfectly safe.

You have a misconception of what this game is, that doesn't make other players 'douchebags'; infact it says more about you than anything.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2016-12-30 10:44:18 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
If I go to highsec and help gank a freighter, how is that suddenly 'douchebag' behaviour? I admit, I don't gank much because I don't much like the idea of losing my ship to concord. So it works to keep highsec safer, but never perfectly safe.

You have a misconception of what this game is, that doesn't make other players 'douchebags'; infact it says more about you than anything.


You have a misconception of what reading comprehension is, as I never said Jack about anything you are talking about. And that says more about you than anything.

I know I'm posting on a low-IQ forum when I spend more time saying 'I never said that' than saying what I actually said. And that says more about this place than anything.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#59 - 2016-12-30 10:49:12 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
If I go to highsec and help gank a freighter, how is that suddenly 'douchebag' behaviour? I admit, I don't gank much because I don't much like the idea of losing my ship to concord. So it works to keep highsec safer, but never perfectly safe.

You have a misconception of what this game is, that doesn't make other players 'douchebags'; infact it says more about you than anything.


You have a misconception of what reading comprehension is, as I never said Jack about anything you are talking about. And that says more about you than anything.

I know I'm posting on a low-IQ forum when I spend more time saying 'I never said that' than saying what I actually said. And that says more about this place than anything.

When they talk about 'being a douchebag', this is how to be a douchebag.

Class dismissed.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#60 - 2016-12-30 11:50:13 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:

When they talk about 'being a douchebag', this is how to be a douchebag.


Right, because constantly having one's views misrepresented, when it is plain and clear what one has said and what one hasn't said, isn't douchebaggery.