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RMT and Null Sec Alliances
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Prince Kobol
#161 - 2012-01-13 20:55:07 UTC
met worst wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
...is more likely done by hoards of pilots in NPC corps in their hulks and macks mining and their BS in missions who work directly for the RMT Sellers and the maybe odd few hundred pilots acting on their accord.


And a quick look through at least one RMT site I dug through will find several Titans available at approx. US$1600 each (just one example).

Last I heard, this required a CSAA in nullsec and given the cook time, support of the alliance holding the CSAA. If this is not proof of 0.0 alliance/s being involved then I'd be eager to hear how not. Really, it's a question of WHO and HOW MANY in 0.0 are involved, not WHETHER they are.

If I was the OP, I'd be asking how sales of vessels of this size don't attract SOME attention - at alliance level (unless leadership is involved) or even at CCP level.

You draw your own conclusions.

EDIT. Another thought. A highseccer, even a very successful one is going to make let's say 100m/hour. He's going to need to work 3 hours just to make $10 (assuming 300m isk for $10 is the going rate). Who would? If he runs multiple accounts, he also needs to make enough to pay for his plexes. A lot of work for very little return.

It's why I keep saying so much of the income MUST be coming from passive income streams in the billions, possibly trillions. Only one place and one way that happens.


Simple.. after many years of RMT companies botting the crap out of Eve, buying PLEX using stolen credit information, pretty sure isk is not a problem for them :)

So as another posted said, so long as they have the isk they can purchase a titan and then sell it..

simples
met worst
Doomheim
#162 - 2012-01-13 22:53:05 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
met worst wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
...is more likely done by hoards of pilots in NPC corps in their hulks and macks mining and their BS in missions who work directly for the RMT Sellers and the maybe odd few hundred pilots acting on their accord.


And a quick look through at least one RMT site I dug through will find several Titans available at approx. US$1600 each (just one example).

Last I heard, this required a CSAA in nullsec and given the cook time, support of the alliance holding the CSAA. If this is not proof of 0.0 alliance/s being involved then I'd be eager to hear how not. Really, it's a question of WHO and HOW MANY in 0.0 are involved, not WHETHER they are.

If I was the OP, I'd be asking how sales of vessels of this size don't attract SOME attention - at alliance level (unless leadership is involved) or even at CCP level.

You draw your own conclusions.

EDIT. Another thought. A highseccer, even a very successful one is going to make let's say 100m/hour. He's going to need to work 3 hours just to make $10 (assuming 300m isk for $10 is the going rate). Who would? If he runs multiple accounts, he also needs to make enough to pay for his plexes. A lot of work for very little return.

It's why I keep saying so much of the income MUST be coming from passive income streams in the billions, possibly trillions. Only one place and one way that happens.


Simple.. after many years of RMT companies botting the crap out of Eve, buying PLEX using stolen credit information, pretty sure isk is not a problem for them :)

So as another posted said, so long as they have the isk they can purchase a titan and then sell it..

simples


And these Titans are harboured where?
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-01-14 03:39:15 UTC
Love people asking for the smoking gun.

There isn't a smoking gun. It's a digital world. If you discount eye-witness accounts then there can be no evidence. EVE only exists because we interpret all these pretty lights to mean something!

And eye-witness accounts are going to be quite rare because 1) Bots don't talk, but they logoffski very well, and 2) People making money off of a "victimless crime" don't usually brag about it.

So, no. There is no proof. Because EVE doesn't really exist. It's just a bunch of smoke and mirrors that money flows through.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#164 - 2012-01-14 03:54:13 UTC
Kitten Arbosa wrote:
Part of it is the innate easiness to assign RL value to ISK. I mean, if you knew you were sitting on, say $40,000 worth of ISK, and all you needed to do was unload it....

The other part is simple psychology. the average Joe in EVE would go "hells yeah cash out". Next thought is "Well if *I*, being honorable Joe EVE would do it..then obvs those scumbags over in That Corp are doing it. They already jerks."


Somebody please define honorable for this guy.

As for the topic of this thread; I don't really care to worry about it. I hate that RMT are there, (and they definitely are); but there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. I even know there's US based RMT; which implies Legal action can be taken. Nobody has done it that I am aware of; but maybe this is still to shaky of ground legally. No idea.

Russian guy bragging on the internet. Yeah, I heard about that; and I heard about, (maybe the same guy), a guy releasing his sales info from RMT. None of this makes any real difference to me; as they either have been dealt with, or can't be dealt with. You can't even determine their level of honesty reliably; as it might be to get back at someone else.

Legally, they're untouchable; but you can always take away their EVE count.. wait.. who's to say they care? If they've gone and done that much; maybe they just don't need it anymore. Always another game around the corner.

I know, for a guy who doesn't care; I sure am putting a lot of thought into this. Just occured to me too.

Anyway, I have no power to change it, and neither do you.

zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Prince Kobol
#165 - 2012-01-14 10:25:11 UTC
met worst wrote:
And these Titans are harboured where?


That is a great point and one I didn't think off

Another question would be regarding Titans is that there is such a small number of them in game it shouldn't too hard to keep track of them.

Again you can but help think what is CCP actual involvement. Are they simply just that bad and inept (Looking at CCP Screegs here) or is it they are fully aware of what is going but refuse to do anything about it for what ever reasons.

As for not being able to do anything about, well there people are wrong.

The one thing we can do is keep talking about and never stop.

Constantly post thread after thread after thread until it become public knowledge that something isn't right.

Perception is a powerful thing and I am damn sure CCP do not want to be know as a developer who either turns a blind eye to RMT or is involved in some way shape or form.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-01-14 10:43:55 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.


Rmt and botting do go hand in hand though and anyone who's lived in null for any period and travelled round certain areas past and present will tell you botting is and and was common place. With bots comes isk selling and other forms of rmt. And for bots to efficiently, they need to be deep in safe null sec where no reds will appear.

Rmt by alliance leaderships on the other hand seems to be kept privy to leadership though but given you can buy anything for in eve for real money if you know where to look, there must be collusion with some larger alliances. You can't just put up csaa's any where and not have protection. And yes, you can buy caps and supercaps for real money just like you can still buy and sell characters for real money. You just need to know where to look.

Looks like ccp still hasn't found where. Or they have and are using it as a honey trap.
Siva Surya Kshatriya
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2012-01-19 10:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Siva Surya Kshatriya
Avensys wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


Those mountains of hulks.. again go and fraps it.

I keep seeing people talking about these huge fleets of bots in null sec yet I have never seen anybody fraps it.


don't have any fraps but here's a screenshot from December 14th: http://i.imgur.com/j4CKk.jpg

camped the system in a cloaky for two days some time after an alliance mate took this image - first day there still were 2-3 Rorquals idling logged in inside POS shields at all times, second day some guy showed up and pulled down one of the two large staging POSes in system after which the Rorquals (in the other POS) stayed logged off, too.

Snatched some of the POS fuel he had left behind and made my way home, ignoring the mining ships in the system next door.

As you will probably point out I have no reason to suspect anything other than an extremely well coordinated fleet of legit players, so I didn't bother CCP with any sort of petition.


Interestingly, no one in this thread demanding proof of botting has bothered to reply to this quote, though they're more than willing to rip apart those with "he said, she said" type 'evidence'. Seriousley, if you're going to start a thread asking for proof, you best reply to all arguments and not just those that are easy to counter.

I concede that a screenshot of 30 pilots sitting patiently in Mackinaws in null sec POS isn't proof of botting alone. However, take a close look. I selected three random pilots (Sanfords Son, Gen Raptor, and Kira Maas) and did a quick little search on them.

First off, none of these pilots have ever posted a message to the EVE forum. That's fine, most players don't. Next, their Battleclinic. None of them have any kills, just losses. And finally, they all joined Bloodhound. [B] at the same date 8 months and 21 days ago (and they all joined their corp within 3.5-4 months ago).

Conclusive proof? No, but it's kind of hard to ignore.
Lord Azeroth
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-01-20 00:45:15 UTC
Siva Surya Kshatriya wrote:
Avensys wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


Those mountains of hulks.. again go and fraps it.

I keep seeing people talking about these huge fleets of bots in null sec yet I have never seen anybody fraps it.


don't have any fraps but here's a screenshot from December 14th: http://i.imgur.com/j4CKk.jpg

camped the system in a cloaky for two days some time after an alliance mate took this image - first day there still were 2-3 Rorquals idling logged in inside POS shields at all times, second day some guy showed up and pulled down one of the two large staging POSes in system after which the Rorquals (in the other POS) stayed logged off, too.

Snatched some of the POS fuel he had left behind and made my way home, ignoring the mining ships in the system next door.

As you will probably point out I have no reason to suspect anything other than an extremely well coordinated fleet of legit players, so I didn't bother CCP with any sort of petition.


Interestingly, no one in this thread demanding proof of botting has bothered to reply to this quote, though they're more than willing to rip apart those with "he said, she said" type 'evidence'. Seriousley, if you're going to start a thread asking for proof, you best reply to all arguments and not just those that are easy to counter.

I concede that a screenshot of 30 pilots sitting patiently in Mackinaws in null sec POS isn't proof of botting alone. However, take a close look. I selected three random pilots (Sanfords Son, Gen Raptor, and Kira Maas) and did a quick little search on them.

First off, none of these pilots have ever posted a message to the EVE forum. That's fine, most players don't. Next, their Battleclinic. None of them have any kills, just losses. And finally, they all joined Bloodhound. [B] at the same date 8 months and 21 days ago (and they all joined their corp within 3.5-4 months ago).

Conclusive proof? No, but it's kind of hard to ignore.


Some people love mining, AFK, in certain parts of Null, fun really.
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#169 - 2012-01-20 01:24:32 UTC
Quote:
“I think the trouble with me is lack of faith. I have no rational ground for going back on the arguments that convinced me of God’s existence: but the irrational deadweight of my old skeptical habits, and the spirit of this age, and the cares of the day, steal away all my lively feeling of the truth, and often when I pray I wonder if I am not posting letters to a non-existent address. Mind you I don’t think so—the whole of my reasonable mind is convinced: but I often feel so. However, there is nothing to do but to peg away.”

C.S. Lewis, on Doubt.


Besides the reality or falsehood of said statement, lies the very REAL feeling of it happening ... regardless.

There lies the beautiful quandary of which CCP is the only judge and arbiter.

They will never release their edicts, and we the thronged mass of flesh that awaits the public trial will be diverted in our endeavor to simply wander aimlessly, bedazzled by the pretty colors painted in the walls of Babylon. Lost amidst the heat and blaze of the Sun, looking for the answer, made slaves by the very ones we befriended.

Take it as you will, this thread explains as much as water falling slowly into a cup.

Only danger lies in the cup not overfilling but finally cracking.

We all have been warned.



Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#170 - 2012-01-20 01:30:19 UTC
It's a cycle. CSM elections are coming up, so all the bad-branders are coming out of the woodwork.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
WhaleCommander
Caucasian Culture Club
#171 - 2012-01-20 02:12:25 UTC
Regardless of whether the Alliances themselves are responsible or RMT or not, you can't deny that many 0.0 Alliances are directly or indirectly involved with RMT, whether it be from botting renters or their own members.

Look at all the rare deadspace, officer items that are sold on RMT sites, to be able to readily sell these indicate that they have suppliers in nullsec getting it for them.

Being able to ratting in nullsec space without end and with security can generate lots of isk, the question is who provides the space and security to rat the sites and produce a very stream of income? A nullsec alliance of course.

Ratting is an isk faucet that generates a consistent amount of isk for each type of rat you kill, compared to mining or missions which are often subject to economic or gameplay changes. Ratting is easy to do, generates a good amount of isk, and is an endless supply, making it ideal for botting isk required by RMT.

0.0 Alliances, not all of them, are involved in RMT.