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Confusing skill system.

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2016-12-29 21:29:33 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but
some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints
would be super.

Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace
some of your bad decision training.

You might want to try another path after 4 years
without having to create a new character or account.

None of the skills work against you. If you want to train something new then train it. There is no reason for you to have to start over. You can specialize in mining and then realize that you like combat more and then train up combat. I can think of no situation where you are better off starting over than just training those skills on your current character.

You could train up a mining character and a combat character if you wanted to be able to specialize each one. People do that kind of thing and there can be benefits to doing it that way. I'm just saying that once you've trained up the skills for mining you are still better off switching your current character to combat skills rather than starting over.

It is really sounding to me like you are stuck in the character class mentality which does not exist in this game. This sandbox is quiet fun IMHO if you just let go of what you learned in other games and give this one a try with fresh eyes.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-12-29 21:48:03 UTC
Okay, good points.

Anyway, especially if you are a confused Alpha with slow skill learning
and realize you have taken some stupid / unnecessary skills it would
be nice to reset those skillpoints.

Also it takes some effort to start doing skillinjectors. (5500000 SP)

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Memphis Baas
#23 - 2016-12-29 22:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
For now, just stop training the skills you think are useless, and start training the skills you think are good.

Later, you can use skill extractors to remove those. But you have to wait until you're past 5.5m SP, and also wait until you have enough ISKs to afford skill extractors.

This is a SLOW game. Stop, think, plan ahead, give it time to train. If you want to play fast games, feel free to play a FPS shooter or dogfight game or whatever.

EDIT: And if you don't like EVE, then don't play. It's just a game, shrug. Play something else. No sense playing if all it does is gets you frustrated and annoyed. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2016-12-29 22:21:12 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
For now, just stop training the skills you think are useless, and start training the skills you think are good.

Later, you can use skill extractors to remove those. But you have to wait until you're past 5.5m SP, and also wait until you have enough ISKs to afford skill extractors.

This is a SLOW game. Stop, think, plan ahead, give it time to train. If you want to play fast games, feel free to play a FPS shooter or dogfight game or whatever.

EDIT: And if you don't like EVE, then don't play. It's just a game, shrug. Play something else. No sense playing if all it does is gets you frustrated and annoyed. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.



No, dont get me wrong. I had a supershitty start and swore every day
I would never play this game again.
Well Im still here. I downloaded some corp skillplans and I have a
good queue going.

Only thing is that all those skills seems... fake? Overambitious?
Wow-factorish? Eyecandy? Much do about nothing? Cant find the word.

Especially that level 4 to 5 jump.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Memphis Baas
#25 - 2016-12-29 22:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Several skills in the Missiles category:

Missile Launcher Operation - unlock missile weapon systems
Light Missiles - be able to shoot missiles designed for frigates, bonus to damage
Missile Bombardment - bonus to range
Missile Precision - bonus to hit smaller targets than what the missile is designed for
Missile Projection - bonus to speed (range)
Rapid Launch - bonus to rate of fire (DPS)
Target Navigation Prediction - bonus to hit faster targets than what the missile is designed for
Warhead Upgrades - bonus to damage

Light Missile Specialization - unlock Tech 2 missiles, bonus to damage.

So, several skills, you feel the need to train all of them to 3-4? Ok that'll take a while.

But you're also arguing against the number of skills, I'm guessing you'd prefer 2 skills:

Missile Launcher Operation - unlock missile weapon systems
Light Missiles - shoot light missiles, and also bonus to their range, DPS, speed, and how well they hit smaller targets.

Question is, would you be OK with these two skills taking as long as those other skills together? 2 weeks for 2 skills?

So yeah, there's a wait, you're blocked from accessing the better versions of the missiles because you have to wait for skills. People want to see progress, though; it's better to hear "skill training complete" daily for 2 weeks than it is to hear "skill training complete" once, at the end of 2 weeks.

And also, a point that we can't demonstrate until you've gained some experience with the game, the bonuses in this game are multiplicative. It's better to have 8 bonuses of 15% each than it is to have a single 120% bonus from a single skill. Because 8 bonuses of 15% each are: 1.15 * 1.15 * 1 .15 * ... * 1.15 = 3.06 = 206% bonus, better than 120% bonus.

This game works on multiplying together small bonuses from various sources: from your ship, skills, modules, implants, drugs, fleet boosts, rigs, overheating. This type of multiplicative math allows for very high complexity and many combinations, much like the simple moves in chess or go allow for complex matches.

We don't want to replace this with a simple 1 skill system.

EDIT: EVE is a strategy game, like an RTS or chess. First you learn how to move the pieces (fly the ships), then you get to the real game of strategy and how to beat opponents or even huge alliances, conquer the map, become somebody. People discuss the game mechanics and try to invent new fittings to get a slight bonus here or there, and the fact that it's spaceships, in space, becomes secondary, much like the fact that the chess pieces are supposed to be an army with foot-soldiers, knights, bishops, etc., doesn't matter that much for the actual match.

People like EVE because of its complexity, not because of spaceships or lasers shooting. People like chess because of its complexity, not because it's a simulated medieval melee combat scenario. We're likely to become somewhat nasty if you start suggesting that CCP get rid of the complexity of this game; however artificial it may seem to you, it's why we're fans.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#26 - 2016-12-30 01:44:11 UTC
I will post my old skillpoints speil when I get home.

And answer all the OPs questions

How did you Veterans start?
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2016-12-30 02:37:27 UTC
it makes sense that the higher you train something, the more and more you need to train to get any significant increase.

This holds true for most anything.
Going to the gym? Big gains at first but then you have to get ridiculous to make even small gains after that.
Diets? Easy to lose 10-20 pounds quickly, but beyond that it takes serious effort.
Horsepower? It's easy to get to 180mph, but breaking 200mph requires basically a whole other engine worth of power.
Shooting? Just being able to make a gun function will hit a large target, but it takes a huge amount of time to hit MOA consistently.

Thus, Eve training follows suit and makes perfect sense. Whether that small gain is worth it depends on your situation.

Consider the solo PvP guys that make videos. Even with blingy fits and tons of skill and experience, most still barely survive a battle. Deep in structure, a couple modules burnt out, limping away from the battle. Those extra 2% this or 4% that often make the difference between victory and loss. Those guys make or break their game on margins that small.
If you just run endless PvE in high sec, then those margins don't really matter.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2016-12-30 04:05:24 UTC
Okay... so here is the lay of the land:

How does the skillpoint system work?

- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower tier skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills.


- (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.


Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills.
Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.


- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply).
If you simply train up all the skills within a given specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about **80 to 90%** of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills maxed out.


- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster).

Example: I personally have the T2 weapon specializations at level 4. That puts me at a 2% disadvantage in damage against someone who has the same skill(s) at level 5 (assuming we are both using the same ship with the same fit)


- Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another.

Example: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc.


- High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. They simply give a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost.

Ex1: A basic T1 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~10% omni-resistance to damage for only 100 thousand ISK... a T2 Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~15% omni resistance to damage for 1 million ISK... a "deadpsace" Armor Adaptive Plating gives ~19% omni resistance to damage for 15 to 20 million ISK.

Ex2: A group of three or four T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/39793460/ (Condors caught me and ground me down... I only had time to kill one of them)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38239838/ (all the Breechers in this KM were T1 fit... I could only kill two of them before being nuked)


What does this all mean?

- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than "get enough skillpoints, open window, click, press F1- F9."
There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc).

- One of the ideas behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment share with Tech 2/3 and Faction ships/equipment.
Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.

- Once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of mostly focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly. You can find these skills in the "Engineering" section of your character skillsheet.

- Just because you are limited in what you can do (as a newbie) it does not mean that your contribution to a team is meaningless and/or without weight.
Being a "tackler" or cheapo Ewar-support in PvP might indeed be suicide if you have limited skills and knowledge... but even half-success can mean the difference between catching or losing a target... everyone escaping a bad situation or dying in a fire.

How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#29 - 2016-12-30 04:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
To answer the rest of the questions:

Quote:
Why so many skills?

There are a lot of things to do and specialize in EVE.

Industry has a HUGE chunk of skills dedicated to it.

Ship skills can be broadly divided up in "Core Skills" (skills that any ship can utilize) and "Specialty Skills" (see: skills related to a specific class, tactic, and/or weapon).

This provides lots of variety to the kinds of tactics that players can specialize in.

Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Why so big leap between level 4 and 5?

With the exception of "prerequisite skills"...

The "time sink" is there to force you to make a choice; will you spend a lot of time training to get that 2 to 5% edge over other players in that specialty... or will you stop at level 4 and move on to something else?


Trasch Taranogas wrote:
As you say, Its impossible to get all skills to level 5.
(Unless you pay 28000$)

That makes so many skills and especially levels that
are "useless" and / or unnecessary, seems like a waste
just to confuse players.

It is not impossible, no. But it is effectively impossible unless you play for REALLY LONG TIME.


More to the point though... you are not supposed to be able to train ** everything ** to max level (not in a "reasonable" amount of time, that is)


And there is no such thing as a "wasted skill." There are skills you find useful now and those you do not find useful.

Someone out there may find a use for that skill you saw as "useless."

Which is the point.

If you find yourself in a situation where you need a skill, but it would take too long to get it (or train it) you can always ask another player who does have that skill to help you.



Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Hmm, dont know if it exists such an option but
some form of regret-replacement of skillpoints
would be super.

Pay some ISK to have a space clinic to replace
some of your bad decision training.

You might want to try another path after 4 years
without having to create a new character or account.

Do not worry about it.

Alpha clones can train all of the skills listed under their limitations without penalty.


I will also note that no skill in the game will lock you out or prevent you from training other skills.

For example:
I used to mine back when I was a newbie (circa 2009)
I decided I hated it.
So I trained up combat skills.

Years later I can still fly mining ships if I choose to.
I can also fly almost any combat subcapital ship in the game.
Tomorrow, I may decide to train some industry skills.

I can do all that without having to start a new character because there is no limit to what I can train into.

The only "penalty" is the time it takes to train up said skills.

How did you Veterans start?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-12-30 05:13:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:


- One of the ideas behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment share with Tech 2/3 and Faction ships/equipment.
Example: you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast frigate that does something similar.


As usual Uncle Shah is right on the money. What I have quoted above is probably the best advice that you will find in this thread, maybe anywhere.

To get good at this game you will need experience. To become experienced at this game requires donating some hulls to the war gods ( getting blown up ). Those lessons that you learn from each ship loss will all be learned the same regardless of if you have 200K skill points when you learn them or 200 million skill points when you learn them. Further those lessons will be learned the same regardless of if you learn them in a 500K isk frig or a 100 million isk frig.

So since we have established that player skills are far more important than character skills. You are far better off focusing more on what you as a player are learning rather than worrying about the skills that your character has.

Eve is a game about learning how to do more with less. The most tracked PvP statistic in this game is isk lost versus isk destroyed. Not how many times that you have gotten blown up nor how many kills that you've been involved in but what is the ratio of the total isk value of the ships that you've lost versus the total isk value of all of the ships that you have destroyed.

You could loose thirty nine 500K isk T1 frigates in a row and then blow up one 20 million isk T2 frigate and still have a positive kill efficiency and be considered successful. Even in large null sec sov battles where thousands of ships are destroyed, everyone scrolls right to the bottom of the battle report to see which side lost more isk than the other.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#31 - 2016-12-30 07:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
First up, after much head scratching, I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely nothing in EVE an Alpha can't actively participate in.

You may not be able to fly a Dreadnaught, but you can certainly tackle one for your fleet and enjoy watching it go boom. You may not be able to light a Cyno, but you can take a Titan Bridge to one.

Even cloaky Black Ops fleets are open to you, you can sit in a brick tanked Vexor (for example) and act as bait while the cloaky cyno/tackle ship sits nearby waiting for someone to take a nibble at you so they can light the Cyno and together you proceed to drop a hundred bombers and BLOPS Battleships on some poor fool's head.

Goonswarm has a great meme/ad thingy about exactly THIS.

An Alpha sitting in a Maulus or Crucifier can effectively shut down three 100m SP pilots and prevent or minimise their damage potential. One keen Alpha in a Griffin can save a capital ship by jamming out tackle.

Give me a keen young Alpha clone, bright eyed and excited in their T1 EWAR or Tackle Frigates and Cruisers over a bored, jaded, whinging bittervet in their ISK2b battleship any and every day of the week.

Trasch Taranogas wrote:
I read somewhere that level 4 is 20% SP to get 80% advantage.

That last bit of gain is so ridiculous its not even worth getting
as many are saying. Cloaking as an example.


In some cases, you are correct in that last IV-V gain is rather pithy for the time investment required, Cloaking, as you identified, is a good example.

There's also plenty of examples of where level V skills can allow you to do some amazing things that you couldn't do with level IV skills. The core fitting skills come to mind here. There's some really nifty ship fits out there that require you to squeeze every last bit of Powergrid and CPU possible out of your hull. Powergrid/CPU Management, Weapons Upgrades, Advanced Weapons Upgrades, Energy Grid Upgrades and the like are all 'fitting skills'.

Then, there's a few skills that you have no choice but to train to V if you're set on a certain path. Advanced Spaceship Command V comes to mind.

Logistics Cruisers V is another one. Take it from a LogiBro, the difference between IV and V in the logistics wing is HUGE, especially when we're talking Guardians and Basilisks which establish a capacitor transfer chain. Logi V is flat out demanded by most logi wings and logi IV is usually only very briefly tolerated if you're actively training to V. The reason is simple: A Logi V Guardian is cap stable. A Logi IV Guardian generally isn't. In a long battle, the Logi IV bros will cap out and when they do, the whole cap chain can collapse, capping out the Logi V pilots and leaving the entire fleet at the mercy of your opponents.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2016-12-30 10:14:21 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
My point of this is said Memphis Baas. 34 years to get all level5.

34 years!!! Thats beyond comprehension. Nothing lasts that long.
Couldnt like 5 years be a cap?

I would point out that in many cases level V opens the doors to new skills or T2 equipment, it isn't just a 20% gain on the previous level. Some skills though are 'almost' worthless to train to V. Cloaking V, any racial T3 Cruiser, Jury Rigging etc.

I've been subscribed to this game on this char for 6 years and at the moment I'm excited because I'm 2 days away from the final skill to get into Black Ops Battleships. This skill will have zero impact on most players and PvP engagements I get involved in as it's use will be very limited. But I'm drooling at the prospect of fitting up my first Black Ops BS. I should add that this char can't fly caps and Dreads is my next big thing to aim for. I don't inject SP btw.

If skills stopped at IV I would have everything on every char on this account already and probably playing another game, but this post would still be here complaining about IV being the 80% effort for a miserable gain.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#33 - 2016-12-30 13:10:08 UTC
Just a couple of points, if there was a 5 year cap:

I'd have max skills now. There are a _lot_ of players who have been around longer than I have.

With the longer skill train, the difference between an old character, and a new character is less pronounced. Sure, I've been playing for 5 years, but I don't have everything at max, and pwn everyone. I had to pick where to specialise

If you pick somewhere else, it could be a hard counter for what I picked.

It makes the skill training decisions more meaningful.

However, one thing to bear in mind is, once you hit a certain point, you're not getting 'better'. You're just getting more flexible. Instead of being 20% better with a ship, you have another ship available. (training into a different race, for example)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Professor Sternu Tarantoga
Queens of the Drone Age
#34 - 2016-12-30 13:11:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Sternu Tarantoga
If your skill queue would end after 5 or 10 years and there was nothing more to train.. now much old school players would have quit EVE by now? And even if they stayed every old clone would have exactly the same set of maxxed skills. And about the skill progression: I like it that I can catch up to 80% on most fits in a moderate amount of time while the vets get their 20% bonus for their skills at level 5. Seems to be quite balanced to me.

As we progress our skills without grind (like most other games do) it should take some time to reach the same level as year old pilots or those players would feel a bit screwed. 80% doesn't feel to weak as a new player and I don't get the feeling I couldn't stand a chance against vets at all.

EDIT.. ninjaed by a CSM..
mkint
#35 - 2016-12-30 15:30:28 UTC
OP is right. Max SP for everyone! Infinite resources for everyone! God mode for everyone!

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2016-12-30 16:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
Oh boy.

Thank you everybody for the response!

Very well explained. I kinda get it now.

There has emerged another question. Seems that
the importance of equipping the ship could be far more
important than training some level of skill?

Are we too obsessed about skills (those who dont unlock others)?

One of the biggest handicap an Alpha has is the lack of cloaking skill, or?

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-12-30 16:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Yes, we are all obsessed with skillpoints, unfortunately this does not stop soon... Blink

But you got it, personal skill and knowledge (knowing the mechanics and twists, resulting also in efficient fits) are much more important than a lvl5 skill.

Cloaking is a serious restriction, but necessary to avoid abuse.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Keno Skir
#38 - 2016-12-30 16:53:21 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Oh boy.

Thank you everybody for the response!

Very well explained. I kinda get it now.

There has emerged another question. Seems that
the importance of equipping the ship could be far more
important than training some level of skill?

Are we too obsessed about skills (those who dont unlock others)?

One of the biggest handicap an Alpha has is the lack of cloaking skill, or?


Actual skills (how to approach, what to shoot or not shoot etc) are far more important and meaningful than SP skills (flying t2 ships etc).

I have several Alphas successfully living in wormhole space as explorers currently, they don;t seem to be held back much by lack of cloak (because they've been taught actual skills).

How you fit your ship is generally more important than the extra few % of whatever skill. This is demonstrated by vets rolling new characters and winning fights in them with next to no SP. It has been shown that actual skills will generally win a fight against someone with lots of SP but no actual skills.

Keep it up, pop by here if you're confused, stay humble and don't wait for skills too much. Think to yourself "how can i do this with what i have, rather than waiting for the skills".

Fly dangerous Pirate

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Memphis Baas
#39 - 2016-12-30 21:11:46 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Seems that the importance of equipping the ship could be far more important than training some level of skill?


Equipping the ship properly IS much more important that the skills you trained.

You're the one who's been focusing on skills.

Basic guidelines. Advice from a PVP veteran. Video. Fitting the Alpha clone ships.
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2016-12-30 21:25:15 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Seems that the importance of equipping the ship could be far more important than training some level of skill?


Equipping the ship properly IS much more important that the skills you trained.

You're the one who's been focusing on skills.

Basic guidelines. Advice from a PVP veteran. Video. Fitting the Alpha clone ships.



Got caught in the hype. Only played 2 weeks, everywhere is
mandatory skillplans and players buying skillinjectors for
ALOT of money.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.