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Turret tracking vs overview tracking?

Author
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2016-12-28 14:36:34 UTC
Grigg Skjellerup wrote:

rain6637 wrote:
you can totally tell by the ship's speed though. If that interceptor is doing like 4km/s, i mean.


As I said, you 100% know it is on. But training interceptor from 1 to 5 doesn't change the velocity, it only reduces the sig radius. And as the person shooting them, you have no way of knowing whether they've trained it to 1 or 5.



You could have the client use default values I suppose. So it would assume MWD with base skills and display that. It wouldn't make much of a difference in the output. The alternative of trying to keep a ship's sig radius a secret doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to hold back something like a turret tracking quality indicator.
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
#22 - 2016-12-28 14:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cookie
What was wrong with having tracking speed (rad/s) in the weapon stats and the angular velocity (rad/s) you can have listed in the overview ?
We have this accuracy rating now which isn't really helpful at all, why not add something like sig rating for ships, like ... a frigate has a sigrating of B, would make it much easier to see if a gun with a rating of 40 can hit a ship with a sig rated B.
Maybe, for expert mode, classify shipspeed in greek letters or so, should help a lot.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#23 - 2016-12-28 15:07:43 UTC
While I cannot say for certain if the client knows what a targeted ship's sigRad is, I guarantee the server knows. So it would not be hard to just send that info to your client as part of the overview data. Just enable a sigRad column.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-12-28 16:21:19 UTC
Cookie wrote:
What was wrong with having tracking speed (rad/s) in the weapon stats and the angular velocity (rad/s) you can have listed in the overview ?
What was wrong was that the sig resolution of the gun and the sig radius of the target had significant impact on the chance to hit. Just having a gun with a rad/s tracking number higher than a target's rad/s orbit doesn't mean you'll be able to hit it. Also, a medium blaster with a higher tracking stat than a small rail doesn't have a better chance to hit.

Quote:
We have this accuracy rating now which isn't really helpful at all, why not add something like sig rating for ships, like ... a frigate has a sigrating of B, would make it much easier to see if a gun with a rating of 40 can hit a ship with a sig rated B.
Because sig radius of the target is highly variable, even from ship to ship of the same type, and angular velocity of the target is also highly variable. Having a single static statistic for ships doesn't really convey much useful information.
Othran
Route One
#25 - 2016-12-28 16:26:43 UTC
the tl;dr is that its been dumbed down to mush because radians are maths. Sig radius has **** all to do with tracking so stop with that nonsense.
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
#26 - 2016-12-28 16:40:17 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Cookie wrote:
What was wrong with having tracking speed (rad/s) in the weapon stats and the angular velocity (rad/s) you can have listed in the overview ?
What was wrong was that the sig resolution of the gun and the sig radius of the target had significant impact on the chance to hit. Just having a gun with a rad/s tracking number higher than a target's rad/s orbit doesn't mean you'll be able to hit it. Also, a medium blaster with a higher tracking stat than a small rail doesn't have a better chance to hit.

Quote:
We have this accuracy rating now which isn't really helpful at all, why not add something like sig rating for ships, like ... a frigate has a sigrating of B, would make it much easier to see if a gun with a rating of 40 can hit a ship with a sig rated B.
Because sig radius of the target is highly variable, even from ship to ship of the same type, and angular velocity of the target is also highly variable. Having a single static statistic for ships doesn't really convey much useful information.


well ... like you said ... the only really constant factor with your guns is the tracking speed, sig radius has nothing to do with it.
Sigradius is nowhere to be found in the overview so it's kinda pointless to have it mashed up with tracking speed to some arbitary number as gun stats which you aren't able to compare quickly with anything you have in your overview readout.
That you have a hard time hitting tiny targets with a large gun is somewhat logical and doesn't really translate over to the accuracy score.
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#27 - 2016-12-28 18:27:58 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Well the problem is the fact that you have to do any mathematics or mental gymnastics at all - that's ********.


You must be new around here :) Do you have a spreadsheet program?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2016-12-28 18:42:13 UTC
Logan Revelore wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Well the problem is the fact that you have to do any mathematics or mental gymnastics at all - that's ********.


You must be new around here :) Do you have a spreadsheet program?


There is an EVE way around that problem tho. You bring a bunch of friends along with you and web/paint the target into oblivion. Then, tracking becomes kind of moot.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-12-28 19:44:39 UTC
Othran wrote:
the tl;dr is that its been dumbed down to mush because radians are maths. Sig radius has **** all to do with tracking so stop with that nonsense.
You need to know four numbers in order to calculate your chance to hit something with turrets (assuming you're in optimal):
Gun signature resolution (meters)
Gun tracking (rad/s)
Target signature radius (meters)
Target angular velocity (rad/s)

These days, gun signature is a constant 40,000 m across all guns. Turret tracking remains rad/s and is displayed in the info panel. CCP actually did the opposite of 'dumbing down' - they made more maths necessary.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-12-28 19:50:11 UTC
Cookie wrote:
Sigradius is nowhere to be found in the overview
That's true, and I think it's quite unfortunate.

Quote:
That you have a hard time hitting tiny targets with a large gun is somewhat logical and doesn't really translate over to the accuracy score.
How so? A small gun has, what, 200 or 300 tracking? Compare that to a large gun's 4 or 5 tracking, and it seems rather obvious simply from the accuracy score that the large gun will have a much harder time hitting small targets...?
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
#31 - 2016-12-28 20:05:27 UTC
maybe i have worded it wrong, but to boil it down... let's assume you have a ship with only M guns (for examples simplicity sakes) and want to try to hit a frigate with it.
The one and only thing you can yourself manipulate is your relative position/velocity which immediately boils down to your guns tracking speed.
Take the readouts you can get from overview and tell me how to turn my ship to have a better chance at hitting when i have a gun accurcy score of 40.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2016-12-28 20:35:02 UTC
The heading indicator line is an improvement. It lets you see the other ship's direction of travel without the "look at" function. But there is still a gap in usefulness.

The tracking stat lacks context. It sounds like everyone knows the number is situational, so maybe the selected target can show an indicator of the sig radius / tracking speed quality. So on a ship-by-ship basis after you select it.

I logged in to check and I'm seeing small blasters with a tracking stat of close to 500 and capital blasters with a tracking stat of .015 ish.

I guess I never paid attention because I had a feel for different turrets without needing the rating. Now I'm wondering why guns have a range of effectiveness that is four or five orders of magnitude.

Overall our HUD and our ship readouts strike me as very primitive for spacefaring vessels.
Grigg Skjellerup
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-12-28 21:03:59 UTC
Othran wrote:
the tl;dr is that its been dumbed down to mush because radians are maths. Sig radius has **** all to do with tracking so stop with that nonsense.


Tracking displayed on guns got standardised, not dumbed down. And sig radius is still right there in the chance to hit formula.

cookie wrote:
maybe i have worded it wrong, but to boil it down... let's assume you have a ship with only M guns (for examples simplicity sakes) and want to try to hit a frigate with it.
The one and only thing you can yourself manipulate is your relative position/velocity which immediately boils down to your guns tracking speed.
Take the readouts you can get from overview and tell me how to turn my ship to have a better chance at hitting when i have a gun accurcy score of 40.


tracking of 40, aiming at a default sized frigate with sig size of 40, you take the tracking on your gun and divide by 1000. Get 0.04 rad/sec. Put angular velocity on overview, if it's 0.04, you'll hit about half the time. If it's lower, you'll hit more. If it's higher, you'll hit less.

Eli Stan wrote:
That's true, and I think it's quite unfortunate.


I think it's good. You can make an educated guess based on how often you hit, but you can't just read detailed info on their ship. Same as you can make educated guess about their hp based on how fast you're damaging them, but you can't just read off the overview what their resistances and hp total are.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-12-28 21:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
If you understand what's going on, why not allow more players to understand what's going on at a glance. Turret damage is a mystery to a lot of players and that's one of EVE's biggest issues. More transparency is a good thing.

It is very empowering to understand how damage is applied in the game. I remember when it was explained to me and I played with the formula to the point of having a basic understanding, I wanted to head straight out into lowsec to pick smarter fights.

I really think it's good for the game to inform people how things work, without requiring them to dig into a formula that should only be for the server's purposes of damage calculation.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-12-28 21:58:26 UTC
Cookie wrote:
maybe i have worded it wrong, but to boil it down... let's assume you have a ship with only M guns (for examples simplicity sakes) and want to try to hit a frigate with it.
The one and only thing you can yourself manipulate is your relative position/velocity which immediately boils down to your guns tracking speed.
Take the readouts you can get from overview and tell me how to turn my ship to have a better chance at hitting when i have a gun accurcy score of 40.

  1. Slow down your target as much as possible. Use scram and at least one web.
  2. Move in the same direction as your target. Determine this by looking at the target's velocity vector in the tactical overlay.
  3. Match your target's speed.


At no point do you need to actually view your target's angular velocity - you simply always maneuver to maximize your chance to hit. Unless your role is tackle instead of DPS, or you are being primaried and want to survive as long as possible, in which case you want to maximize your angular velocity relative to all hostiles on grid, but again you don't care about the actual angular velocity, you just want to maximize it. I mean, if the angular velocity that gives you a 50/50 chance of hitting is 0.12 rad/s, are you really going to fly differently if the actual velocity is either 0.30 rad/s or 0.07 rad/s?

I once was flying a tackle frig trying to get close to some sniping battlecruisers so I spiraled into them - after about four shots that completely missed they all bugged out and I'm 99% sure it's because they saw all their shots missing, not because they looked at my angular velocity and judged it to be higher than their guns' tracking after accounting for their sig resolution compared to my MWD-on sig radius.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-12-28 22:01:25 UTC
You watch the angular V column when you want to pick out a target from the mob. You also watch angular V to see the effectiveness of your webs or maneuvering.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-12-28 22:15:11 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
You watch the angular V column when you want to pick out a target from the mob. You also watch angular V to see the effectiveness of your webs or maneuvering.
Are you talking about when you're flying solo? If so, wouldn't you simply pick the one with the smallest angular velocity regardless of whether it actually is (for example) 0.07 rad/s or 0.22 rad/s? If I'm in a group I simply shoot what the FC calls as primary (or if I'm the FC I pick targets based on what they are, where they are, and what they're doing, not their angular velocity relative to only me.) As for judging effectiveness of my webs, I have the target's regular velocity along with my shot quality to judge that, and as for effectiveness of my maneuvering I certainly can look at the target's angular velocity but I'm not bothering to compare that to my guns' tracking.
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
#38 - 2016-12-28 22:40:30 UTC
man, i'd use sarcasm tags more often if i could find any.

so, there was a rad/s stat for guns, there still is a rad/s readout in overview, rather easy to match if you ask me, why there was a need for a change is still a mystery to me.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2016-12-28 23:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Admittedly I don't know what I'm doing, but there seems to be a discrepancy between the advertised 'tracking' on my turrets, and the angular velocity for ships on my overview (expressed in radians/s). They seem to be unrelated, i.e. a ship on my overview seems extremely 'hit-able' yet I cannot hit it.

Care to explain or point me to a link?

Thanks.


In short http://eve.beyondreality.se/pics/TrackingFormula.png

Important part from that is the first part. trans/range is of course target's angular velocity (rad/s), so you have:

angular/tracking * scan_resol/radius

In the past as long as guns and ships were of similar class size (e.g. small guns vs frigates), you could roughly ignore the right part and compare overview data to a gun's tracking value directly (keeping in mind differences coming from occasional ship bonuses / boosters / implants)

In CCP's infinite stubborn nonsense, they took every single gun and scaled it up to 40km scan_resol and renamed it from tracking to "weapon accuracy score" (and also left all drones at 400m becuase **** yea for consistency). Goodness knows what for overall.

So now we have:

angular/tracking * 40km/radius

They of course didn't give much of a damn about updating what overview can show - it should show angular velocity scaled up to 40km radius (ITOW: multiplied by 40km/radius) - that would be directly useful and actually better than what it was before.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-12-28 23:54:29 UTC
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