Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So now tell me why competing miners get denied their rights to play if all the resources are gobbled up by a miner that can't be wardecced anymore. Wars aren't just about getting easy kills, going after helpless victims, and all the other stereotypes that bears use to undercut the socioeconomic power of wars. Why should miners and haulers be able to mine and haul with impunity? The correct answer is, they shouldn't. They should adapt to the reality of EVE Online, and learn how to operate under wardec conditions, if not fight that wardeccer off, or they will die. Yes, people play the way they want to, and sometimes, the way other people want to play is in direct competition with the way you want to play. That is the very PURPOSE of EVE Online, and what makes it a PVP game. You suggestion is that some people have more of a right to play the way they want to than others do, because you're suggesting putting restrictions on one play style in favour of another.

Did you read the passage you quoted? I'm not against wardecs but I think they should be limited in time. And you can fight anyone anytime time but then you have to live with the conequences aka Concord and status loss. So when you want someone gone kill him. Again and again. I'm fine with it. But you want YOURE safety in HS with a high sec rating but still want to kill others with inpunity. There is NOTHING that stops you from going on a killing spree in HS except that YOU don't want to suffer the consequences. Why do you always ask the defender to change their behavior but don't want to do it yourself when suffering from a low sec standing?

50+% of Eve are free combat zones. And you are skirting the answer why these areas are neglectable for mining! They have better ores so the profit is higher per hour so why don't all the vets mine there?????? If you want to kill miners, why don't you go there and do it in the 50% of New Eden where there are no inhibitions?
Perma wardecs are cancer while a week of wardecc is totally okay! Balance is the word.

BTW: yes you can fit a tank on a venture but does anyone want to mine in such a ship? That's the point: The miners want to continue to play the way they have fun but you tell them to totally gimp their ship so YOU can have fun. And if someone tells you to go to null/low to kill something you are insisting on having YOUR fun everywhere in New Eden. The miner is paying for his sub the same way you do, so he might have a right of higher protection in "his" part of New Eden. Would you accept it if the miners start to ask for Concord in low so that they can have fun with the better minerals? Remember: mining is an essential part of the New Eden economy and gameplay in Eve.

With the addition of alpha clones, many new players have come to Eve and more than a few older players have returned. This has created a field day for high sec wardec corps. They depend on the fact the higher tier players in the corp they wardec are in lowsec with alts to do their hauling or are negative sec stat so they cannot come out and fight. They sit outside of trade hubs and in the mayor routes and pick off new players or haulers which offer them no fight at all. What chance did a week old player who just bought his first cruiser in Jita, and was looking forward to taking it to low sec with the rest of corp mates stand, when he undocks to find 2 instalocking artillery Loki's with out of corp logi waiting there.

Don't get me wrong, this is fine for a while. It is a good learning experience. The problem is when there is no end in sight. As if a week of having all our new recruits relieved of everything they own and quitting the game wasn't bad enough, there is no reason for these wardec corps to ever stop. The corp I am currently in has had a non-mutual wardec against ppl we have no intention of fighting renewed for a 4th week now.

I understand that Eve is about PvP. And I understand that wardecs are a huge part of that. The problem here is non-mutual war decs. If two corps want to fight each other forever and have good fights in high sec, then more power to them. Fight on gents!!! but when a corp that has mostly low sec locked chars tries to grow, these non-mutual wardecs cripple all efforts to recruit and make new players wonder what the point of all this is. So many of our new alphas have quit and gone to play something else. Something where you actually stand a chance. The really terrible part of all this is that just a handful of players in these high sec war dec corps can ruin the experience of hundreds of players.

This is not an isolated incident. I had a corp that I started with my brother. We started recruiting and with in 3 days had a wardec with Jita campers. We shut down our corp, told our new players, "Sorry, the two of us can't keep you safe. Please continue to play and find help and guidance somewhere else."
He moved to a Indy corp in Gallente High sec. They are now under fire and have had their mining fleets completely shut down. I joined a low sec PvP corp. And we are now under fire from 2 different groups of trade hub campers. It's only 2 now, but it was 3 not long ago.

The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.
As already stated by CCP here:

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing

"Attempting to abuse a new players lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain or simply for their harm is prohibited in these solar systems"

I like that rule. Protect new players from older players that know the game while they learn. Make sense. However these never ending, non-mutal wardecs are the same thing if not worse. It turns recruiting and training new players into an exercise in frustration.

What these Highsec wardec corps are doing is not PvP. It is new player grief in its purest from. But there is some room for that. I am in no way saying that wardecs should be removed from the game. There should just be some manner of control to the endless preying on new and smaller corps. Every time another week is renewed of the existing wardecs, or a new one is added by another band of gankers who are looking for anything but a real fight, even I, who have been playing for over 11 years feel like maybe my time would be better spent doing something else.

Thanks to any who have read this far.
Rahmat

The problem has many sides. I grant you that more corps should do something about wardeccs but the HS mechanic is heavily in favour of the attacker. He has no space assets like freighters or mining ships to protect. Many complains come from new player corps which players lack the skill in- and outside of the game to cope with a wardecc. E-Uni is more or less 365 days a year under wardecc and I couldn't care less. And mining in in low Sec is dead but wardeccs create the same enviroment in HS for mining corps.

Let's take your example: loosing 1 week of playing the game is bad for a corp. It's simply no fun at all. Either the corp moves or it would fight back. And if it doesn't there are still suicide ganks to get them out. But let's take another example: a new player mining corp gets decced by merc: what can they do? shut down the corp, leave the game or loose everything they own to some vets where each player has more money and SP then the whole corp?

Wardecs benefit the attacker! There is no risk free undocking in Eve but wardeccs just shelter the attacker from the consequences of their aggression without any limits. You can kill anyone anywhere in Eve BUT in HS you have to live with the consequences and that's what wardeccs are used for. The basic idea of wardeccs is good but be honest: how many wardeccs are used for real fights between corps and how many are for griefing/robbing?

Again, I'm going to bottom-line this for you one last time. Any changes to the wardec system cannot simply be made just to favour one group or playstyle over another, even if it's to protect people who don't want to PVP, because this is EVE, a PVP game, so if you don't want to PVP, you don't log in. That really is the bottom line. You can deny it, hate it, ignore it, whatever you want, but it is the simple fact of the game that if you choose not to PVP, or learn to PVP, you make yourself a victim. No one else can make that choice for you, mate.

Well, I never heard big complains about the wardec system from attacker side.

Well, I never heard big complains about the wardec system from attacker side. So it is very likely that it is biased to that side.
Wardec is forcing a playstyle on players that don't want to play that way. This is Eve, so they have to accept it to a certain degree but there should be limits.
My Idea for WD changes would be:
1. decreasing fees: It should be expensive to dec a small/new corp and cheap to dec Goons or PL. Big corps can do something when they care to while small ones might not. The current system makes blanket deccing of small corps cheap and it has the advantage that the chances of someone fighting back are small, because they are small/new, and the members might make more mistakes.
2. doubeling the fees every week. Because the base is much lower you can dec an alliance for much longer then a single small corp.
3. After you dropped the dec there should be a cooldown of 4-6 weeks.

There are cool ideas for structures in space but that would create other problems and be much harder to implement while These changes are quick and cheap.

I will give you a small taste though:

- I wish war costs didnt incentivize corps forming massive alliances to offset the expense of war
- I wish the watchlist wasnt taken away so you see more specialized hunting
- I wish corps werent so easy to fold and re-create when they get a dec
- I wish there was a real incentive for players to not drop corp for the duration of the war
- I wish that corps would take care of their new bros instead of feeding them spoonfulls of helplessness
- I wish for many other things that are best kept secret lest they become abused :)

These are just a few of my complaints, and Im sure others will have a long, much more exhaustive and detailed list.

1. really? 50mISK/week for a small corp is too high? If you are grinding thats less then an hour for a week of wardecc. That's cheap! and 500M for 2000+ targets isn't that expensive too. Who said that you should be able to make money with wardeccs?
2. watchlist for HS would be no problem,
3. Why, it's much easier to create a wardec so why do they need to stay for YOUR fun?
4. right, but there need to be other reason to stay in corp then just to create content for you. Whats in for the defender? If you are facing weeks or month of wardecc disrupting your playstyle it's easier to restart the corp. That's one of the reasons why limiting the length of wardecs makes sense. Think about your reaction is someone would force you to mine for weeks.
5. right, but it really depends on the corp. mining corps are something totally else then merc/mission corps.

Well, I never heard big complains about the wardec system from attacker side.