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Intrusion Mining with Frigates
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#41 - 2016-12-25 11:53:42 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I could scram you another advantage of a Venture but I ain't telling.


C'mon... drop that beautiful knowledge on us.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#42 - 2016-12-25 13:27:34 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
this is another case of "I" cant find a use in something so it must be broken


Just because it's not the most absolutely optimal thing for you doesn't mean it doesn't get used for this, or that it's not a decent niche for the ship.

Not every ship in the game needs to have an optimal use for a player with 100mil SP for it to be a good ship with a solid role, which the Venture absolutely is.


ty for explaining that... I thought it was clear but i guess i was wrong

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cade Windstalker
#43 - 2016-12-25 19:57:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
this is another case of "I" cant find a use in something so it must be broken


Just because it's not the most absolutely optimal thing for you doesn't mean it doesn't get used for this, or that it's not a decent niche for the ship.

Not every ship in the game needs to have an optimal use for a player with 100mil SP for it to be a good ship with a solid role, which the Venture absolutely is.


ty for explaining that... I thought it was clear but i guess i was wrong


Oh you were perfectly clear, it was just such a good quote I couldn't resist using it and I always try to give credit where it's due Big smile

Iain Cariaba wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
A Venture won't mine anything close to the amount of ore a Retriever pulls in, because it's a tiny fraction of the cost and risk of a Retriever.

A Venture mines about half what a retriever does per second, a Prospect pulls about 80%. They're actually extremely good mining ships.


Yup, I actually included numbers for the Venture and Retriever in my earlier post. Personally I just wouldn't put "half of" in the ballpark of "anywhere close to". That doesn't make them bad though, absolutely.

*remembers the days of the Mining Rokh being viable* Straight
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-12-26 06:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So your entire baseline on whether or not something is worth running is whether or not it makes you the most isk? Because that's what I'm reading above. If I'm incorrect, please clarify.

What it boils down to is, if you feel safe enough to use the Retriever, you're going to make more mining the same asteroids. However, if a particular type of asteroid is not available to you, and you want to mine it, a Venture makes a very good, very cheap, very expendable ship to go ninja mining.

It's not all about what makes the most ISK. Regardless of how much cheaper the Venture is, the Retriever just isn't very expensive. If you're losing Retrievers often enough for the cost to impact your mining income, then it's the mining downtime that hits you harder than the cost of the hull. In such a situation, you might as well just be mining in highsec or somewhere safer.

Venture is good for ninja mining, but ninja mining itself seems to be highly niche at best, and that's what my suggestion is all about: make ninja mining more viable.



Iain Cariaba wrote:
A Venture mines about half what a retriever does per second, a Prospect pulls about 80%. They're actually extremely good mining ships.

Like I said before, Prospect mines like a barge. Were ninja mining to become an easy way to make similar yields to slow-mining (in terms of overall value) in a Venture, the Prospect would become overpowered and it would crash high end mineral prices, making the Venture useless and ninja-mining would have poor profitability. That's why I said that with my proposal, the Prospect's ore yield should be reduced. If ninja-mining were actually a thing (it isn't, not with normal ores), then the Prospect would not need much higher yield than a Venture to be an extremely good ship. As it stands, the Prospect's much higher yield is due to the Venture's yield being very low and thus garbage to anyone with the SP to fly a Prospect.


The crux of the issue is that the current way mining works in EVE creates a dichotomy:
1.) newbies and alphas need to be limited to mining less in order to protect the economy from bots
2.) a ship that mines low at low SP/effort cannot mine high at high SP/effort because mining effort is virtually a non-factor
Thus in the current system, the Venture is forced to have sub-par attributes for veterans. I offered a way to solve the problem, to make the Venture great for veterans (not merely okay), while leaving it totally fine for newbs and bots.



edit: The Prospect actually doesn't mine that much already. It's far lower than 80% of the Retriever pull, and much closer to what the Venture gets. I ran the numbers with max skills, T2 miners (T2 crystals on Retriever), and I gave the Prospect and Retriever 2 MLUs, and Venture 1 MLU:
Venture: 511 (47%)
Prospect: 696 (64%)
Retriever: 1083 (100%)
Given these numbers, I wouldn't lower the Prospect's yield for ninja-mining.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iain Cariaba
#45 - 2016-12-26 08:08:55 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It's not all about what makes the most ISK. Regardless of how much cheaper the Venture is, the Retriever just isn't very expensive. If you're losing Retrievers often enough for the cost to impact your mining income, then it's the mining downtime that hits you harder than the cost of the hull. In such a situation, you might as well just be mining in highsec or somewhere safer.

Venture is good for ninja mining, but ninja mining itself seems to be highly niche at best, and that's what my suggestion is all about: make ninja mining more viable.

Then what is it about? Pretty much everything you're asking for is already in game, but rather than do what's already provided you come up with multiple excuses on why you can't do it.

"A style of mining in which you spend time finding a very small but very rich pocket of ore, then you mine it out in a short amount of time and move on to the next one," defines ninja mining.
Cherry picking the +10% ores gives you the spread out rocks that mining frigates are great for picking, and some increased income over the more mundane ores.

Why is this not good enough?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Like I said before, Prospect mines like a barge. Were ninja mining to become an easy way to make similar yields to slow-mining (in terms of overall value) in a Venture, the Prospect would become overpowered and it would crash high end mineral prices, making the Venture useless and ninja-mining would have poor profitability. That's why I said that with my proposal, the Prospect's ore yield should be reduced. If ninja-mining were actually a thing (it isn't, not with normal ores), then the Prospect would not need much higher yield than a Venture to be an extremely good ship. As it stands, the Prospect's much higher yield is due to the Venture's yield being very low and thus garbage to anyone with the SP to fly a Prospect.

The Prospect mines like a barge for you because you treat it like one. If you want to sit in one space and churn rocks til the hold is full, the Prospect is the wrong ship. Take one outside the blue wall you mine behind and you'll see what it can do.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The crux of the issue is that the current way mining works in EVE creates a dichotomy:
1.) newbies and alphas need to be limited to mining less in order to protect the economy from bots
2.) a ship that mines low at low SP/effort cannot mine high at high SP/effort because mining effort is virtually a non-factor
Thus in the current system, the Venture is forced to have sub-par attributes for veterans. I offered a way to solve the problem, to make the Venture great for veterans (not merely okay), while leaving it totally fine for newbs and bots.

1.) Is irrelevant to this discussion. If mining needs to be limited with newbies and alphas for botting reasons, why is the train time to mining barge so short? What does a botter care about the extra day or two to get into a mining barge over a frigate?
2.) This is an issue with the mining mechanics in general, something your suggestion does nothing at all to fix. All your idea does is give rich, experienced players a way to get richer.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
edit: The Prospect actually doesn't mine that much already. It's far lower than 80% of the Retriever pull, and much closer to what the Venture gets. I ran the numbers with max skills, T2 miners (T2 crystals on Retriever), and I gave the Prospect and Retriever 2 MLUs, and Venture 1 MLU:
Venture: 511 (47%)
Prospect: 696 (64%)
Retriever: 1083 (100%)
Given these numbers, I wouldn't lower the Prospect's yield for ninja-mining.

First off, what's your scale here? Random numbers thrown out without any identifiers is meaningless. Is this isk/m3, m3/cycle, units/cycle, m3/minute?

Secondly, your numbers with the Prospect are wrong. You don't put Miner 2s on a Prospect, not when you should already have all the prerequisites needed to train Deep Core Mining and use the Modulated Deep Core Miner 2s.

Using the same fitting you used above, aside from using the right mining lasers on the Prospect, with Pyfa's All 5 character gives me the following numbers:
Venture: 8.52 m3/s (if you have skills to put MDCM2s on it, it goes up to 9.93 m3/s)
Prospect: 13.5 m3/s
Retriever: 18 m3/s

Properly fit Prospect mines 75% of what a Retriever does, while a Venture does 47% or 55%, depending on which lasers you can use.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-12-26 09:15:20 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Using the same fitting you used above, aside from using the right mining lasers on the Prospect, with Pyfa's All 5 character gives me the following numbers:
Venture: 8.52 m3/s (if you have skills to put MDCM2s on it, it goes up to 9.93 m3/s)
Prospect: 13.5 m3/s
Retriever: 18 m3/s

Properly fit Prospect mines 75% of what a Retriever does, while a Venture does 47% or 55%, depending on which lasers you can use.

Wait...you can fit regular crystals to DCML2s? This whole time I've been mining wrong!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iain Cariaba
#47 - 2016-12-26 09:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Using the same fitting you used above, aside from using the right mining lasers on the Prospect, with Pyfa's All 5 character gives me the following numbers:
Venture: 8.52 m3/s (if you have skills to put MDCM2s on it, it goes up to 9.93 m3/s)
Prospect: 13.5 m3/s
Retriever: 18 m3/s

Properly fit Prospect mines 75% of what a Retriever does, while a Venture does 47% or 55%, depending on which lasers you can use.

Wait...you can fit regular crystals to DCML2s? This whole time I've been mining wrong!

According to Pyfa you can. I'll log onto Sisi, double check, and update this post.

Edit: Info in later post.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2016-12-26 09:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Iain Cariaba wrote:
According to Pyfa you can. I'll log onto Sisi, double check, and update this post.

According to EFT you can. According to the in-game info you can. All along I thought they only mine Mercoxit, and slower than regular miners mine regular ore. I didn't even know they use crystals at all. With Mercoxit crystals, they can mine Mercoxit almost as fast as regular Miner IIs can mine regular ore.


Iain Cariaba wrote:
Then what is it about? Pretty much everything you're asking for is already in game, but rather than do what's already provided you come up with multiple excuses on why you can't do it.

Cherry picking the +10% ores gives you the spread out rocks that mining frigates are great for picking, and some increased income over the more mundane ores.

Why is this not good enough?

It's not in the game. I already explained why +10% ores don't work: because barges can easily pick them out too. They aren't spread out well enough, and they aren't rich enough, to constitute ninja mining. They're too abundant to constitute ninja mining. Ninja mining isn't actually a thing in EVE.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iain Cariaba
#49 - 2016-12-26 10:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
According to Pyfa you can. I'll log onto Sisi, double check, and update this post.

According to EFT you can. According to the in-game info you can. All along I thought they only mine Mercoxit, and slower than regular miners mine regular ore. I didn't even know they use crystals at all. With Mercoxit crystals, they can mine Mercoxit almost as fast as regular Miner IIs can mine regular ore.

Slapped it into the Ship Simulator on Sisi, and here's what I got.
Miner 2s: 6.8 m3/s
MDCM2s w/Arkonor 2s: 8 m3/s
MDCM2s w/Mercoxit 2s: 6.4 m3/s

Keep in mind, these numbers are for a character that can't actually fly a Prospect nor use mining lasers anymore. It's a baseline for the change between the different configurations.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Then what is it about? Pretty much everything you're asking for is already in game, but rather than do what's already provided you come up with multiple excuses on why you can't do it.

Cherry picking the +10% ores gives you the spread out rocks that mining frigates are great for picking, and some increased income over the more mundane ores.

Why is this not good enough?

It's not in the game. I already explained why +10% ores don't work: because barges can easily pick them out too. They aren't spread out well enough, and they aren't rich enough, to constitute ninja mining. They're too abundant to constitute ninja mining. Ninja mining isn't actually a thing in EVE.

Ninja mining is sneaking where you don't belong and mining the resources. It is very much a thing, regardless of whether you want to believe it or not. Usually, however, the ninja miners are out huffing gas and looking for Mercoxit in out of the way places.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#50 - 2017-01-03 17:48:12 UTC
Reaver is to Eve as Custer was to the great plains.
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