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Give dreadnoughts proper sniping range
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-12-24 06:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
James Zimmer wrote:
In the era of fighters that can go 2000km, dreads are already borderline completely worthless. They need a serious buff, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread.
Suggestion for Capital Ship Destroyer post #44


Carriers can now lock targets out to 1000km and the grids have been made far larger. Battleships have been able to shoot out to 250km since the beginning, so dreadnoughts have not been able to have the proper range advantage they should have had due to their size.

Cruisers have 2x the range of frigates, and battleships have 2x the range of cruisers (counting base range of most of the weapons). I'd say that dreadnoughts are two size classes of ship above battleships, so why not give their weapons 4x the range of battleship weapons? High-angle weapons can have 2x battleship range. This would give dreadnoughts an ability to fight subcap fleets that can't shoot back, at least until the subcap fleet collects itself a warp-in on the cap fleet. It can buy them valuable time and can enable dreadnought fleets to be significantly more flexible, perhaps saving them from obsoletion. They might even be able to use this range to set up an ambush by trapping a fleet in bubbles and shooting them from far away. It'd be like shooting fish in a bucket!



Here's a T2 Naga fit that, with max skills, can reach 291+58 attack range with Spike ammo, dealing 441 DPS. I don't know what it's targeting range is because EFT maxes out at 300km, but it's probably about 325km if I'm doing my math on stacking penalties right.
[Naga, Sniper]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L

Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Medium Ionic Field Projector I



So that would mean by my proposal, a Moros with the same T2 fit and using T2 Dual 1000mm Railguns would be able to shoot out to 776km optimal + 232km falloff. (I multiplied the ranges by 4, but also divided the optimal by 1.5 because the Moros does not have a range bonus.)

Along with this should come High-angle long-range weapons, of course. :)



Questions I Have for You
What do you guys think? Would this be a useful change? Would it be overpowered? What are some effective ways to use this range? What are some counters to these new dreads? What would you fear more, these dreads or the new carriers? What are some other ways we could fix dreads? Am I off my rocker and dreads are fine?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2016-12-24 07:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
... range is literally the only reason to use carriers over dreads atm. Cost dps application sp all favor dreads

Not to mention dreads can fight caps and subcaps

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-12-24 07:47:54 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... range is literally the only reason to use carriers over dreads atm. Cost dps application sp all favor dreads

Not to mention dreads can fight caps and subcaps

I am very happy to hear that. Maybe for once we'll start seeing dreads on the field in fights other than mundane POS-bashes.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2016-12-24 08:14:59 UTC
Maybe you should come to ls we have been using them in fights even b4 the changes

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2016-12-24 09:54:08 UTC
I think positioning is key in every fight. If you jump into a blobb, you're toast.

So at sniping ranges, you have to consider those ranges being a double edged sword here, since you can just warp down to be in range again and my XL cruise missiles follow you for 166km.

I have yet to see how far the reach of XL Aurora is.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2016-12-24 13:11:16 UTC
...The scenario in your OP just flat out wouldn't happen.

'oh, we're bubbled. Anchor up, burn out of bubbles, take fleetwarp (to a probe result on your deads)' and then the subs are on their optimal and you can't actually hit them with your cap guns.


Then again, what difference is it going to make if you're at 776km or if you're at the 444 the 3TC 2locus plus spike gives you on a t2 siege moros anyway? You're still sitting in warp to me distance, and it is going to take a combat prober seconds to probe you out either way.
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2016-12-24 15:27:33 UTC
Quote:
This would give dreadnoughts an ability to fight subcap fleets that can't shoot back


Lol!

Why would you think this would be a good idea? It's not going to be remotely fun to fight against, assuming it's even usable. If it's easy to pull off then you've just invalidated sub-caps, since Dreads deal about twice the DPS of a Battleship with HAWs.

Also this doesn't even make sense, since HAWs are literally just clusters of Battleship guns.

Also the post you based this on is ridiculous. No reason to use Dreads? Right, that's why there are all those dead Dreadnaughts on zKill. No, both Carriers and Dreads have their niche and reasons to be used, and neither is worthless right now.

We also really don't need massive "can't shoot back" cap fights happening out at 500-1000km. At least with Fighters if the Carrier is off at 2000km you can blap his Fighters before he can pull them back in.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-12-25 05:49:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...The scenario in your OP just flat out wouldn't happen.

'oh, we're bubbled. Anchor up, burn out of bubbles, take fleetwarp

What if they use HICs or have a very large bubbled area? While the subcap fleet will eventually burn out of the bubbles, it may take too long. Of course it'll be difficult to tackle the subcap fleet, as well it should be. But it seems like something that would happen a lot more often than "never".

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-12-25 06:36:08 UTC
There was an alliance that tried to use a sniping dread doctrine a couple years back..... turns out it doesn't work very well because being in siege and unable to warp is really bad for maintaining sniping range. This wasn't a small no name alliance either... it was goonswarm. If anyone had enough meatshield to throw at suicide tackle to keep a fleet in position to try to dread snipe.....




There are situations where LR dreads work... but they have to be carefully set up and as a counter to someone else escalating to short range dreads, in a situation where you can keep tackle, and you know the other group won't have sufficient escalation power to counter your counter. Anything outside of that situation very limited situation, it falls apart and doesn't work.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-12-25 12:22:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
...The scenario in your OP just flat out wouldn't happen.

'oh, we're bubbled. Anchor up, burn out of bubbles, take fleetwarp

What if they use HICs or have a very large bubbled area? While the subcap fleet will eventually burn out of the bubbles, it may take too long. Of course it'll be difficult to tackle the subcap fleet, as well it should be. But it seems like something that would happen a lot more often than "never".


Do you know what happens to a HIC sitting in the middle of a ball of hostile subcaps?

Where is your huge ball of bubbles coming from? Are you proposing that someone is going to jump a fleey into a pile of 500 T2 large bubbles while you're sitting at optimal and waiting for them, when they could just bridge straight on you?

And you never explained why you cannot already do what you are proposing. What is the big difference between having your dreads sit at 700km and having them sit at 400km?
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#11 - 2016-12-25 17:40:49 UTC
If I can express any option on the subject matter. I would just max their range to 350.
That would match the max lock range in a medium citadel and which is one of the things they would probably bash generally.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Bazaar Broker
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-12-26 04:25:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... range is literally the only reason to use carriers over dreads atm. Cost dps application sp all favor dreads

Not to mention dreads can fight caps and subcaps

I am very happy to hear that. Maybe for once we'll start seeing dreads on the field in fights other than mundane POS-bashes.


In what world do you live in where tracking blap dreads don't exist? They've been a mainstay for over half a decade.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2016-12-26 07:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Danika Princip wrote:
And you never explained why you cannot already do what you are proposing. What is the big difference between having your dreads sit at 700km and having them sit at 400km?

DPS. A dread that CAN shoot to 700km can do great DPS at 400km. A Dread that CAN shoot to 400km is best under 250. It's also vulnerable under 250. Giving them more range gives them more flexibility to choose their range.



Bazaar Broker wrote:
In what world do you live in where tracking blap dreads don't exist? They've been a mainstay for over half a decade.

I'll be honest, I've never seen one of those.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2016-12-26 10:55:15 UTC
It's just as vulnerable at 250, 400 or 700. Because the subcaps are just going to warp to their optimal while you're stuck in siege.

Nobody is going to plink at dreads with t1 cruiser DPS at 300km when they can just warp closer.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-12-26 11:25:10 UTC
aaannnndddd if they were to drop them at 300 when they were balanced to be able to hit out to 700.... the likelihood of moving faster than they could track starts to become a reality, in regards to microwarping out of bubbles, etc. Also command destroyers, which are a whole 'nother issue in and of themselves.

Outside of all the 'yeah we're just gonna warp to you' logic that Danika is more than correct in supplying.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2016-12-26 11:29:09 UTC
OP needs to learn the ships he's complaining about

Max locking range is now 300km, up from 250km.

carriers have a locking range of over 4000km

Before the changes to XL missiles, i undocked a phoenix for nearly every fight. it 'WAS' fun pop-in everything from dictors to macherials with it.

its still perfectly possible to have fun with dreads.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#17 - 2016-12-26 20:51:35 UTC
they do that and I want my beyond 250kms for my tempest because I know I can make it shoot longer

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2016-12-27 11:01:18 UTC
It'd be funny if they made t2 dreads that could shoot from across systems if you had dedicated ships scouting for them and marking targets, trade off being you have to manually aim at the marked targets from across the system.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-12-27 11:03:15 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
It'd be funny if they made t2 dreads that could shoot from across systems if you had dedicated ships scouting for them and marking targets, trade off being you have to manually aim at the marked targets from across the system.




If this ushered in Line of sight and collision mechanics, I'd tolerate the evil for the much greater.... rrr..... 'good.' We'll go with good.... as I buy out the prophecy and 500mn MWD market.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-12-27 11:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
Kenrailae wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
It'd be funny if they made t2 dreads that could shoot from across systems if you had dedicated ships scouting for them and marking targets, trade off being you have to manually aim at the marked targets from across the system.




If this ushered in Line of sight and collision mechanics, I'd tolerate the evil for the much greater.... rrr..... 'good.' We'll go with good.... as I buy out the prophecy and 500mn MWD market.


What do you mean on line of sight and collision mechanics?
I was 99% joking. I'm too inexperienced to try and come up with any sort of balanced capital ship. I've never been in a big fleet. I just thought it would be funny to have a big dreadnought anchored in orbit around another planet while your fleet tackles and spots for you while you watch on a dscan style map. What popped into my head of reading the op was the ultimate sniping ship. When a target is painted using a specialized painting module for your ship it shows up in the distance like a station or planet icon would. Firing the gun would be like a sniper mode and you can try to aim at them and lob haymakers towards them. An actual hit might be impossible with lag and everything. Maybe an airburst style weapon that detonated and deals damage to a marked target within a cone in front of the round. Get it within a margin of error to actually deal damage. Like how missiles work with explosion velocity. They wouldn't be able to move while using weapons and would have to have a special module going to keep the ship stable from being nudged by gravity. Or just anchor it. It can't be aoe or I think it would be too much like doomsday weapons. I remember titans having those but I guess they were removed in my absence.

I don't know how line of site would work. You mean a ship so big it would be visible across system like a star or planet? I think that's too much. Or do you mean a sniper scope mechanic that allows it to zoom in to extreme ranges and watch battles and shoot at targets and lead the shots ahead of them hoping for a hit.
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