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Its not fare punish PVE players with boredom. MORE FUN FOR PVE !

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Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#41 - 2016-12-25 02:54:51 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Zakks wrote:
John 2557 wrote:
The most boring mission in the world kills lots potetial players.



Do players actually die doing PVE?

Maybe therein lies the problem.

Actually, after rescuing the damsel about five thousand times a tall glass of bleach with a battery acid chaser starts to sound REALLY attractive.

Yeah, even after rescuing her that many times, she still want to remain 'friends'...

#relegatedtofriendzoneforever
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2016-12-25 05:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Bertok Francis wrote:

Uh, I am pretty sure that eve is a sandbox; IE you can chose your own goals and methods of achieving said goals. If a lot of people decide that PvE is more fun then PvP then logically either you will agree with them or you will buy a catalyst, magnetic field stabalizers and some tech 2 neutron blasters. Or you will go to low security, null security or wormhole space; you can find plenty of PvP in the first two by just looking at your map and the last one by finding a citadel or POS and shooting it until people come along or any variety of ways (combat probes maybe or going to a C5) also from reading this thread, I am sure there are plenty of people who will still be happy to shoot at you no matter how good PvE. This is an inherently PvP game but what is wrong with better PvE; I personally find the hacking minigame intensely enjoyable.


EVE is a sandbox, yes. One you share with a lot of other people, who get to decide what they want to do as much as you do. If what they are choosing to do is in direct competition with you, then you are doing PVP whether you like it or not. That is the nature of this game. That is the very foundational core of this game. You don't need to tell me where I can find combat PVP, mate, just take a look at my KB, but combat is not the only form of PVP in this game. The whole game is PVP. Oh, and that hacking minigame? A great distraction in favour of the guy warping into your relic sit to take you out. Those relic sites aren't unique instances that you and you alone get access to. Everyone else can probe them down, and compete with you for what's in there. That's PVP, mate. If you happen to finish it without being bothered, that's just good fortune. Or high sec, where the sites are crap due to the low-risk nature of running them.

PVP = player vs player, any competition between two or more players. That makes mining PVP, as players compete for resources from asteroids and ice; that makes marketing PVP as players compete to buy and sell goods for the best possible prices; that makes all exploration sites PVP by virtue of not being instanced and available to everyone; and that also makes missions PVP by virtue of any pirate, playing the game the way they want to, being able to probe you down, come into your mission, and steal your mission-critical loot, and ransom it to you, or force you into an engagement, or to quit the mission and lose standings. As I've stated earlier in this thread, all the PVE in this game is designed to drive and/or facilitate PVP and most of it, by its competitive nature, is also PVP at the same time.

The PVE isn't bad, it's just designed to achieve a specific function within this PVP game. That's why the PVE is generic and repetitive in a PVP game, just as it is the PVP that is generic and repetitive within a PVE game, like SWTOR. Making the PVE 'better' for EVE online means one thing and one thing only: improving its functionality as a driver and/or facilitator of PVP. 'Voice acting' and cut scenes don't do that, they just cost more money for the devs with no PVP development. Your asking them to do something that is not with the purview of EVE Online. It's like asking the SWTOR developers to add Orcs as a playable race.

If you want to improve PVE in this game, then you do something that adds to the PVP experience; making mining more interactive would keep people at their keyboards, and mitigate the damage done to the player-driven economy by bots and afk'ers; missions could be improved by making them more randomised (random triggers, random distances, random spawns), reducing the ability of a player to blitz them with guides and keeping them in the same place for longer; exploration can be improved the same way, doing the same thing with DEDs, relic and data sites. There are improvements and changes that make EVE better, and there are those that turn it into something that's no longer EVE.

If you're looking for a solo PVE experience, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is really not what you're looking for. If you play EVE for the PVE, you won't last long, because there is actually very little (if not none at all) actual PVE to speak of in this game that isn't also PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Templewood Terrinsbar
AntiMacro Decimation
#43 - 2016-12-25 11:50:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
[quote=Bertok Francis]
If you're looking for a solo PVE experience, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is really not what you're looking for. If you play EVE for the PVE, you won't last long, because there is actually very little (if not none at all) actual PVE to speak of in this game that isn't also PVP.


That is only true if you subscribe to your theory of what EVE and PVP are. Frankly, PVP is not the only game in Eve, Though I guess I could see your point about mining, market, and exploration. I don't see them as PVP.. Someone coming in to mess with your mission, that's griefing.. PVP is about competition between players.. Something that is entered into voluntarily, not something that is forced upon you. Forcing people to play your way, is not sandbox, it's griefing, and frankly is one of the reasons that EVE is supported by people with multiple accounts.

Frankly, after being here for many many years.. I solo explore, I solo poke around in WH's, and I do a lot of things for the heck of it, with no specific goals in mind, all SOLO, also all PVE.. I don't frankly care for PVP Combat.. I do missions, I get in on incursions occasionally.. I play EVE for the sake of fun, and enjoyment, not for making the most ISK per millisecond,.

Do I get annoyed when I'm doing a site, and some obnoxious person comes in and steals the loot drop, such as from a Monastery (Blood Raider) site? Sure.. do I lose sleep over it, or go on about it for days? Nope.. EVE is for Fun.. Not for Work, not For Stress.. and if it's not Fun, then people wont play it.

Telling people to get over it, and play EVE the way YOU think it should be played, doesn't really work for CCP.. They're in the business to make money.. The whole point of Alpha Clones, is to let people log in and get invested, so that they switch to Omega clones, so CCP makes money. If people get more customers for their ships / modules / etc, or others get more targets out of it.. great.. bonus.. but not the purpose.

Frankly, I would love to see someone finally fix that abomination that is the War Dec system. 126 Person alliance war decs a 3 person corp.... Great way for CCP to keep customers and gain more... That word of mouth advertising is really going to be positive for that one... But hey it's PVP everyone should just suck it up... NOT. That's not how real world businesses work. You want EVE to thrive.. it needs to appeal to more than just the die-hard Blow everyone up and laugh at them crowd.

More PVE, More Exploration, More Industry, More Social Events.. These are the things that make it more likely that there will be more PVP Combat players.. because they'll get invested, and want to see what else there is to do...

One thing I DID agree with:

Something to keep the Miners active and actually present at the keyboard.. and not running macros (yes I know those violate the TOS... I also know that 8 ship fleets (1 Orca, 1 Hauler, 6 or so mining barge / exhumers) all being "run" by the same player, are NOT being done manually.. and CCP doesn't really do much about it... unless it's super blatant that it's a macro). I would love to see a mini-game, that required input (and was sufficiently random enough to cause macro's to have migraines for their migraines). Perhaps something that would affect the results of the mining cycle... Say basic input that even a macro could do only gives you 20 - 25% of the normal yield, whereas getting lucky, or being really good at it can give you a 10 - 15% bonus to the base yield. This way miners actually have to do something rather than read a book, go for a jog, whatever, and those that just want to auto-mine don't get near what they could. In addition those who make it a point to be active in their profession can earn bonus ore, just the same as someone in real life who is good at studying the geology of an area can improve their yields in ore or other materials.

*shrugs* Either way.. I'll continue to mine ore when I want to build something for some purpose.. It is after all part of being an industrialist.

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#44 - 2016-12-25 11:55:09 UTC
You consent to PVP by undocking.
Remiel's point was that PVP stands for 'player versus player', not necessarily 'player violencing player'.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Salvos Rhoska
#45 - 2016-12-25 12:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Everything in EVE exists within a pervasive PvP environment.

PvP meaning player vs player competition/conflict/interaction.

See image for a graphic representation

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#46 - 2016-12-25 13:21:00 UTC
Templewood Terrinsbar wrote:
That is only true if you subscribe to your theory of what EVE and PVP are. Frankly, PVP is not the only game in Eve, Though I guess I could see your point about mining, market, and exploration. I don't see them as PVP.. Someone coming in to mess with your mission, that's griefing.. PVP is about competition between players.. Something that is entered into voluntarily, not something that is forced upon you. Forcing people to play your way, is not sandbox, it's griefing, and frankly is one of the reasons that EVE is supported by people with multiple accounts.

Frankly, after being here for many many years.. I solo explore, I solo poke around in WH's, and I do a lot of things for the heck of it, with no specific goals in mind, all SOLO, also all PVE.. I don't frankly care for PVP Combat.. I do missions, I get in on incursions occasionally.. I play EVE for the sake of fun, and enjoyment, not for making the most ISK per millisecond,.

Do I get annoyed when I'm doing a site, and some obnoxious person comes in and steals the loot drop, such as from a Monastery (Blood Raider) site? Sure.. do I lose sleep over it, or go on about it for days? Nope.. EVE is for Fun.. Not for Work, not For Stress.. and if it's not Fun, then people wont play it.

Telling people to get over it, and play EVE the way YOU think it should be played, doesn't really work for CCP.. They're in the business to make money.. The whole point of Alpha Clones, is to let people log in and get invested, so that they switch to Omega clones, so CCP makes money. If people get more customers for their ships / modules / etc, or others get more targets out of it.. great.. bonus.. but not the purpose.

Frankly, I would love to see someone finally fix that abomination that is the War Dec system. 126 Person alliance war decs a 3 person corp.... Great way for CCP to keep customers and gain more... That word of mouth advertising is really going to be positive for that one... But hey it's PVP everyone should just suck it up... NOT. That's not how real world businesses work. You want EVE to thrive.. it needs to appeal to more than just the die-hard Blow everyone up and laugh at them crowd.


Not getting it: the post

There is no griefing going on when someone enters 'your' mission pocket, it isnt your mission in the first place. Next it's impossible in this game for anyone to steal anything from you in space, it isn't yours until it's in your station hanger, and if you took it out you put it at risk. Look I get it, you want to log in and do what you find fun with as little outside influence as possible, but eve is not that game. Eve is a game where every action affects the rest of the game, you don't get to deny this just because it's the mean PvPers telling you it, even CCP say that undocking is consenting to PvP, so you had better accept that core fact or find a game that is not a pvp sandbox.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-12-25 14:06:45 UTC
Templewood Terrinsbar wrote:


That is only true if you subscribe to your theory of what EVE and PVP are.


It's not a theory, mate. What I would give to remember where CCP Falcon explained all of this in no uncertain terms on an AG thread last year and link it to you, but the devs themselves have told us what EVE is, and I'm just relaying that information. I 'subscribe' to it because it's the facts of what EVE is. Unless EVE is in the process of changing into something that's not EVE, in which case, I'll subscribe to something else.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Salvos Rhoska
#48 - 2016-12-25 14:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
PvE in EVE serves two functions:

1) Introduction of isk, production materials and sourcing of un-producible modules/BPs to the market.
2) Settings which enable PvP, in all its forms, defined as competition/conflict/interaction between players.

To simplistically boil it down, PvE introduces material/isk to EVE, and PvP destroys it.

They co-exist in a symbiotic balance and relationship.


The closest analogy I can think of, is the fluid and continuous ocean ecosystems of our Earth.

Denizens of the ocean flock to sources of resources, be they seaweed/algae/krill near the surface, carcasses that have descended to the ocean floor, geothermal vents, coral reefs etc.

These denizens subsist on the raw materials introduced to the ecosystem, and incorporate them into themselves.
They metabolize them into something more than its constituent parts.

And upon these, feed the predators.

Crustaceans utilize the shells of molluscs as armor, similar to a capsuleer with a looted deadspace shield booster.
Remora swim alongside sharks, hoping for a few bits of food.
Eels lurk in crevices, stretching out to catch unwary prey.
Calamari/octupses "cloak" themselves in camouflage.
Deep sea fish "bait" their prey with attractive lights.
Parrot fish peck at coral reefs.

The complexity of this system is staggering, and in constant inter-related flux.
Every interaction is completely unique.

The oceans are a pervasive PvP environment, of competition/conflict/interaction.
Within them, PvE activities source, introduce and complicate materials, competitively (PvP)
Which then, necessarily, are subsequently "destroyed" by violence (PvP)

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#49 - 2016-12-25 14:15:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
PvE in EVE serves two functions:

1) Introduction of isk, production materials and sourcing of un-producible modules/BPs to the market.
2) Settings which enable PvP, in all its forms, defined as competition/conflict/interaction between players.

To simplistically boil it down, PvE introduces material/isk to EVE, and PvP destroys it.

They co-exist in a symbiotic balance and relationship.


The closest analogy I can think of, is the fluid and continuous ocean ecosystems of our Earth.

Denizens of the ocean flock to sources of resources, be they seaweed/algae/krill near the surface, carcasses that have descended to the ocean floor, geothermal vents, coral reefs etc.

These denizens subsist on the raw materials introduced to the ecosystem, and incorporate them into themselves.
They metabolize them into something more than its constituent parts.

And upon these, feed the predators.

Crustaceans utilize the shells of molluscs as armor, similar to a capsuleer with a looted deadspace shield booster.
Remora swim alongside sharks, hoping for a few bits of food.
Eels lurk in crevices, stretching out to catch unwary prey.
Calamari/octupses "cloak" themselves in camouflage.
Deep sea fish "bait" their prey with attractive lights.
Parrot fish peck at coral reefs.

The complexity of this system is staggering, and in constant inter-related flux.
Every interaction is completely unique.

The oceans are a pervasive PvP environment, of competition/conflict/interaction.
Within them, PvE activities source, introduce and complicate materials, competitively (PvP)
Which then, necessarily, are subsequently "destroyed" by violence (PvP)


The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2016-12-25 14:40:25 UTC
Iiiii'd say gameplay is essential, and PVE is a route to satisfying that requirement. However PVE itself is not essential.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-12-25 15:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Malcanis wrote:

The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.

What does "more entertaining" mean?

I'm certain a lot of PvE players would riot or do something else when missions, anomalies, incursions and mining become more random or active aka "fun" while crashing the efficiency or AFKablity and therefore their ISK/h. The drifter desaster and the NPC miners showing that clearly. Burners and sleeper caches are also rather niche, and I wouldn't consider them a big success.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2016-12-25 15:10:59 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
PvE in EVE serves two functions:

1) Introduction of isk, production materials and sourcing of un-producible modules/BPs to the market.
2) Settings which enable PvP, in all its forms, defined as competition/conflict/interaction between players.

To simplistically boil it down, PvE introduces material/isk to EVE, and PvP destroys it.

They co-exist in a symbiotic balance and relationship.

I agree that PVE introduces certain materials and items into the game, and I think the ISK bounty mechanic (and lore) can be implemented in a better way.

Functionally, it's just the game that pays rat bounties. We see the ISK bounty figure and never really question where it comes from, we just know the game will grant it. "But DED" or whatever... you know and I know it's just the game plus some lore.

PVE is also boring and repetitive.

There is a very uncomfortable cycle in EVE, where to make ISK you have to shoot those boring rats, and then to have fun you need to face the possibility of losing all your stuff. There's no real reason to throttle people's PVP gameplay this way. What about combining ISK generation and PVP?

I think it would be better to pay players to PVP, and replace as much PVE with situations where players have to fight each other. And then pay out ISK to both parties so that one can cover their loss and make a net profit, and the winning side can profit even more for not losing their ship.

There are different tiers of PVE sites in EVE, and I think the easiest conversion would be limiting ship classes in lower-payout sites. So for a DED 2/10 site, the ship type would be Destroyers and Destroyers only. 4/10 would be cruisers.

or

Sites can be restructured to pay out the difference between insurance payout and replacement, plus a percentage. The key is that both winning and losing sides will make a profit.

When you require two players to fight and one side lose, you are also requiring destruction of assets. This can satisfy the materials drop requirement. This might put too much pressure on industry, and there is the option of spawning replacement ships. This could also be gamed, so perhaps you want to keep the pressure of ship replacement.

Push-Forward Combat https://youtu.be/r0nOsuaPDeg?t=4m

in this documentary of the creation of Doom, the designers talk about a concept of rewarding players for gameplay, and making sure the player trusts there is a reward for being aggressive. I think if the EVE player knew they would make ISK by going out and fighting someone, they would do it more often.

You could assign the encounters from mission agents or leave them completely open. Perhaps in high and low sec you could place the encounter behind a gate, and lock the gate after two parties have entered.

In null you could require two parties be from different alliances. You can shoot each other in coalition for fun, or you can go next door and raid other alliances' sites.

No matter how it's implemented, replacing PVE with PVP satisfies this bigger issue where PVE become boring. I'm also willing to bet the gameplay payoff for developing PVP encounters is much higher than implementing a new AI.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2016-12-25 15:19:21 UTC
I think rats will always have their place as a way to fill in the silence. Scatter them around and keep them as white noise, and make them nibble at your ankles as you travel through the game world. Or perhaps bite really really hard like in the case of incursion rats.

If PVE encourages group cooperation or especially comms, I'm all for it. Incursions, and most sleeper sites. But aside from mining, I think solo unmolested PVE ISK generation is just a huge loose end that doesn't encourage any of the right things in a game.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Salvos Rhoska
#54 - 2016-12-25 15:26:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
PvE in EVE serves two functions:

1) Introduction of isk, production materials and sourcing of un-producible modules/BPs to the market.
2) Settings which enable PvP, in all its forms, defined as competition/conflict/interaction between players.

To simplistically boil it down, PvE introduces material/isk to EVE, and PvP destroys it.

They co-exist in a symbiotic balance and relationship.


The closest analogy I can think of, is the fluid and continuous ocean ecosystems of our Earth.

Denizens of the ocean flock to sources of resources, be they seaweed/algae/krill near the surface, carcasses that have descended to the ocean floor, geothermal vents, coral reefs etc.

These denizens subsist on the raw materials introduced to the ecosystem, and incorporate them into themselves.
They metabolize them into something more than its constituent parts.

And upon these, feed the predators.

Crustaceans utilize the shells of molluscs as armor, similar to a capsuleer with a looted deadspace shield booster.
Remora swim alongside sharks, hoping for a few bits of food.
Eels lurk in crevices, stretching out to catch unwary prey.
Calamari/octupses "cloak" themselves in camouflage.
Deep sea fish "bait" their prey with attractive lights.
Parrot fish peck at coral reefs.

The complexity of this system is staggering, and in constant inter-related flux.
Every interaction is completely unique.

The oceans are a pervasive PvP environment, of competition/conflict/interaction.
Within them, PvE activities source, introduce and complicate materials, competitively (PvP)
Which then, necessarily, are subsequently "destroyed" by violence (PvP)


The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.


Sure.

But how does one do that?

More missions just means more missions to get bored with after the dozenth time, and min/maxing sets in.
Same goes for Incursions, WH content, anomalies, DEDs, plexes etc
Loot spew was removed from exploration, cos it wasnt "fun" in some peoples view.
Making a mining minigame may be viewed as "fun" by some, but others find it "fun" to afk mine.
The PI minigame is terrible. But how to make it fun without involving PvP as the driver?
Trading is enormously complex and "fun" to some, but bores the brains out of most.

Probing sigs, for example, has started to bore me to death, as incessantly repetitive, yet thousands of other players seemingly enjoy it. Hacking cans has gotten boring, cos I have the SP and know-how to wizz through them. Ive run so many of the same DEDs I can do them even in a drunken stupor.

What is entertaining or "fun" is entirely subjective.

Do you have any concrete suggestions on how to make PvE more entertaining?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#55 - 2016-12-25 19:20:34 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.

What does "more entertaining" mean?

I'm certain a lot of PvE players would riot or do something else when missions, anomalies, incursions and mining become more random or active aka "fun" while crashing the efficiency or AFKablity and therefore their ISK/h. The drifter desaster and the NPC miners showing that clearly. Burners and sleeper caches are also rather niche, and I wouldn't consider them a big success.

That's mostly, because it is really hard to change habits, when the change is going in the direction of more effort.

Remove standings and insurance.
Bertok Francis
Royalty.
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2016-12-25 20:54:53 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Bertok Francis wrote:

Uh, I am pretty sure that eve is a sandbox; IE you can chose your own goals and methods of achieving said goals. If a lot of people decide that PvE is more fun then PvP then logically either you will agree with them or you will buy a catalyst, magnetic field stabalizers and some tech 2 neutron blasters. Or you will go to low security, null security or wormhole space; you can find plenty of PvP in the first two by just looking at your map and the last one by finding a citadel or POS and shooting it until people come along or any variety of ways (combat probes maybe or going to a C5) also from reading this thread, I am sure there are plenty of people who will still be happy to shoot at you no matter how good PvE. This is an inherently PvP game but what is wrong with better PvE; I personally find the hacking minigame intensely enjoyable.


EVE is a sandbox, yes. One you share with a lot of other people, who get to decide what they want to do as much as you do. If what they are choosing to do is in direct competition with you, then you are doing PVP whether you like it or not. That is the nature of this game. That is the very foundational core of this game. You don't need to tell me where I can find combat PVP, mate, just take a look at my KB, but combat is not the only form of PVP in this game. The whole game is PVP. Oh, and that hacking minigame? A great distraction in favour of the guy warping into your relic sit to take you out. Those relic sites aren't unique instances that you and you alone get access to. Everyone else can probe them down, and compete with you for what's in there. That's PVP, mate. If you happen to finish it without being bothered, that's just good fortune. Or high sec, where the sites are crap due to the low-risk nature of running them.

PVP = player vs player, any competition between two or more players. That makes mining PVP, as players compete for resources from asteroids and ice; that makes marketing PVP as players compete to buy and sell goods for the best possible prices; that makes all exploration sites PVP by virtue of not being instanced and available to everyone; and that also makes missions PVP by virtue of any pirate, playing the game the way they want to, being able to probe you down, come into your mission, and steal your mission-critical loot, and ransom it to you, or force you into an engagement, or to quit the mission and lose standings. As I've stated earlier in this thread, all the PVE in this game is designed to drive and/or facilitate PVP and most of it, by its competitive nature, is also PVP at the same time.

The PVE isn't bad, it's just designed to achieve a specific function within this PVP game. That's why the PVE is generic and repetitive in a PVP game, just as it is the PVP that is generic and repetitive within a PVE game, like SWTOR. Making the PVE 'better' for EVE online means one thing and one thing only: improving its functionality as a driver and/or facilitator of PVP. 'Voice acting' and cut scenes don't do that, they just cost more money for the devs with no PVP development. Your asking them to do something that is not with the purview of EVE Online. It's like asking the SWTOR developers to add Orcs as a playable race.

If you want to improve PVE in this game, then you do something that adds to the PVP experience; making mining more interactive would keep people at their keyboards, and mitigate the damage done to the player-driven economy by bots and afk'ers; missions could be improved by making them more randomised (random triggers, random distances, random spawns), reducing the ability of a player to blitz them with guides and keeping them in the same place for longer; exploration can be improved the same way, doing the same thing with DEDs, relic and data sites. There are improvements and changes that make EVE better, and there are those that turn it into something that's no longer EVE.

If you're looking for a solo PVE experience, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is really not what you're looking for. If you play EVE for the PVE, you won't last long, because there is actually very little (if not none at all) actual PVE to speak of in this game that isn't also PVP.

So in other words you agree with me but are arguing semetics?
Hrist Harkonnen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-12-25 20:55:06 UTC
"EVE Online is a PVP game. It is not meant to have 'good' PVE"


This is why it went F2P. PVPers alone couldnt support the game.

Try EVE Online for FREE with 250.000 extra skill points here!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#58 - 2016-12-25 21:06:39 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.

What does "more entertaining" mean?

I'm certain a lot of PvE players would riot or do something else when missions, anomalies, incursions and mining become more random or active aka "fun" while crashing the efficiency or AFKablity and therefore their ISK/h. The drifter desaster and the NPC miners showing that clearly. Burners and sleeper caches are also rather niche, and I wouldn't consider them a big success.


What do you think it means?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#59 - 2016-12-25 21:16:51 UTC
Hrist Harkonnen wrote:
"EVE Online is a PVP game. It is not meant to have 'good' PVE"


This is why it went F2P. PVPers alone couldnt support the game.


Eve is a hardcore game, one that you need to push yourself in to be able to get anywhere. Lots of people like the struggle and enjoy the sense of achievement they get from, for example, building and defending the first keepstar. It reminds me in some ways of dark souls, in that the game doesn't get easier for you, it will kill you in seconds if you mess up, but the fun is where you try to get better. Except dark souls has challenging npcs and eve has savvy players.

I doubt anyone in this thread has anything against Pve changes exactly, but they worry that the changes will be driven by carebears (not speaking about every pve player) who don't want to play a game like eve in the first place. If I complained online that dark souls was too hard I'd be laughed at. What are you expecting different here?

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Doctor Mabuse
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2016-12-25 22:55:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.


I've got to disagree. At the moment if you grind for a week, missioning to buy that shiny ship, you really, really don't want to lose it in combat, as it represents a week of mundane activity. This brings a sense of loss and an adrenaline rush that no other game's PVP has.

If CCP suddenly make missions the greatest thing you can do with a mouse, keyboard and screen, losing that ship has no meaning, because 'Yay! Another weeks missioning!'

CCP have to carefully make PVE activities that provide ISK to be just unpleasant enough to make asset loss mean something, but not too bad that no-one would do them. I think they've done a pretty good job in that regard.