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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Brief Note on the Theology Council Edict on Souls of Clones.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2016-12-24 18:38:31 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
The following dialogue occurred in the channel the Summit. It was recorded from 1:19-1:22 on December 23rd of this year:


"Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else?

Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes

Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice.
Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that.
Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements.

Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote"

So yes. Monster.

Sinjin...!

I don't even know what to-- AAAAAAAGH!

Considering that I just got done trying to tell Ms. Teinyhr that Angels are just people like anyone else could you maybe not make a fool of me quite so fast? I mean, yes, there's variety within any faction, but you keep telling me how awful the Amarr are and then you turn around and....

Gods and spirits.
Praevus
#62 - 2016-12-24 19:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Praevus
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

"Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else?

Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes

Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice.
Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that.
Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements.

Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote"

So yes. Monster.


Mr. Mokk,

With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.

I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.

10000, please. Somewhere in Amarr highsec on contract, I'm too old to smuggle slaves. Mail me to discuss the price if you are interested.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2016-12-24 19:21:49 UTC
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?

Shocking.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#64 - 2016-12-24 19:52:33 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?

Shocking.

Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2016-12-24 20:00:02 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?

Shocking.

Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me.

Because the anniversary celebration of the first one million slave sacrifice is always another one million slave sacrifice.

Even for people as jaded as capsuleers, it's a little....
Arrendis
TK Corp
#66 - 2016-12-24 20:02:12 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
With you? No. Indulging in debate with monsters is a waste of everyone's time.

But then I did not write this thread for you. I only responded to you at all because you grossly mischaracterized the content of the note.


You...wound me, Lord Gaven.

But I'm curious. How exactly am I a monster?



The following dialogue occurred in the channel the Summit. It was recorded from 1:19-1:22 on December 23rd of this year:


"Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else?

Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes

Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice.
Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that.
Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements.

Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote"

So yes. Monster.


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#67 - 2016-12-24 20:13:25 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?

Shocking.

Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me.

Because the anniversary celebration of the first one million slave sacrifice is always another one million slave sacrifice.

Even for people as jaded as capsuleers, it's a little....

I was referring to Sinjin Mokks publicly made deal, actually. But to make myself clearer, I'll explain.

I've lost a lot of my ability to care about what my "ilk" (capsuleers) do to satisfy their need to be something in their own eyes. I don't have it in me to act outraged at events that a carnival fortune teller could see coming a light year off.

Conversely, that doesn't mean I find it acceptable. On the contrary, it's heinous. But it's also unsurprising. Overall, my thoughts in this instance would be summed up as "Tailor your expectations of those around you to realistically reflect what they actually do. And control your associations accordingly. The only person you can morally police is yourself."

On a personal note, and knowing a little of your unique situation, I'm a bit remorseful that you're involved in this, even by proxy, miss Jenneth.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#68 - 2016-12-24 20:17:03 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?

Shocking.


Indeed. It would be hardly notable if he weren't trying to pretend that he was a reasonable person.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2016-12-24 20:20:18 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?



There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
Quartz Jori
Jori's Fullerites and Salvage Inc.
#70 - 2016-12-24 20:31:35 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?


And I'm sure the fact he's just going to slaughter a million of them for the sake of some anniversary has nothing to do with any of this.

I mean, I don't like the Amarr but twisting words like this really doesn't help.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2016-12-24 21:06:12 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Arrendis wrote:


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?



There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.



No. At the end of the day, there really isn't. You work for and kill for a slaver system. You claim it's a birthright and the Will of God. So you don't get to claim some kind of moral high ground when you reap the benefits of the same system I work in.

(And that I yet again agree with Arrendis...)

Slavery is legal in the Empire. It is legal in Curse, Delve and everywhere else in NullSec. So it's a perfectly legal transaction. What my customers do with their purchases is totally beyond my control or responsibility. You have a problem with what he does, take it up with him.









"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2016-12-24 21:10:40 UTC
Praevus wrote:


Mr. Mokk,

With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.

I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.

10000, please. Somewhere in Amarr highsec on contract, I'm too old to smuggle slaves. Mail me to discuss the price if you are interested.



I will be in contact.

Do you prefer your Controlled Personnel to be fitted with TCMCs? I find their use to be much more humane than VITOC or other traditional methods.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#73 - 2016-12-24 21:17:59 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
The mechanics of cloning and the impact on the psyche from practical immortality are two very different things.How the practical immortality is achieved makes little difference, be it magic, cloning, someone inventing an immortality pill, or whatever else you can dream up that'd achieve it. The impact is what matters, not the mechanic used.

Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different.

Impact does indeed matter greatly, I would completely agree on that.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#74 - 2016-12-24 21:19:07 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Arrendis wrote:


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?



There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.


Sure, the difference is that one of the following actions is illegal:

1)selling slaves in nullsec

2)Military assets of the Amarr Empire raiding in Republic space.

Can you guess which one breaks laws and which one doesn't because his alliance makes the laws where he is?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#75 - 2016-12-24 21:22:01 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

(And that I yet again agree with Arrendis...)


Stop doing that.

Also, stop enslaving the baseliner crews off of destroyed enemy ships, it's tacky. Just ransom them back to their captain.
Praevus
#76 - 2016-12-24 21:22:32 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
I will be in contact.

Do you prefer your Controlled Personnel to be fitted with TCMCs? I find their use to be much more humane than VITOC or other traditional methods.
Excellent. Yes, for the transfer period TCMCs will do.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2016-12-24 22:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
The mechanics of cloning and the impact on the psyche from practical immortality are two very different things.How the practical immortality is achieved makes little difference, be it magic, cloning, someone inventing an immortality pill, or whatever else you can dream up that'd achieve it. The impact is what matters, not the mechanic used.

Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different.

Impact does indeed matter greatly, I would completely agree on that.



I would also suggest that you do not understand the impact unless you also understand the mechanics that cause it.

The fact that our "practical immortality" is created by dying over and over again is not a negligible issue. If that immortality were attained by different means, then it is very likely that the impact on the psyche would be quite different.

This is especially true if you accept the existence of souls and the need for the soul to move from one embodiment to the next. That adds a layer of complexity to the process of cloning that would be absent in a less violent form of immortality.

What the Theology Council has done here is affirmed the power of the Imperial Rite to overcome this problem. Given that there has been a great deal of doubt that this was the case over the last decade, with people even arguing that clones were all souless creatures, this is a very important ruling.

It is an important positive statement that the Faith can in fact heal the damage done by the violent transfers of consciousness that are inherent in the cloning process.

What it is not is a blind acceptance of cloning as non-damaging. If you read previous threads on the ruling, you will find that people were taking the ruling as being far simpler than it was. Hence this discussion.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#78 - 2016-12-24 22:26:03 UTC

Quote:

With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.

I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.


The chief aim of man is to glorify God. Minmatar slaves can glorify God only in their destruction. Whether or not you think it "practical", a Minmatar slave can hardly glorify God any more than as a participant in the annual One Million Slave Sacrifice. Amen. Smart Victor.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#79 - 2016-12-24 22:44:09 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Arrendis wrote:


Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?



There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.


Sure, the difference is that one of the following actions is illegal:

1)selling slaves in nullsec

2)Military assets of the Amarr Empire raiding in Republic space.

Can you guess which one breaks laws and which one doesn't because his alliance makes the laws where he is?

Enslaving POWs by military officers in times of war and during other military actions are not against the Empire law, just saying.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#80 - 2016-12-25 00:08:01 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
I would also suggest that you do not understand the impact unless you also understand the mechanics that cause it.


I would suggest you are conflating 'cause' and 'effect'. While it might be accurate to say that you don't understand the phenomena unless you understand the causes, understanding the impact of the phenomena doesn't require understanding the cause. An example:

I can understand the impact of blunt-force trauma of a specific size, shape, and level of energy on a human skull. I can measure the energy imparted, the deformation of the bone as a result, the damage to soft-tissue, and on and on.

I can do this without knowing if the object that did the damage was swung intentionally, or if the impact was accidental. I don't have to know if the materal that it was made of was a modern nanocarbon composite, an iron rod, or a particularly dense stick. I don't even have to know if it was actually swung, if the victim was flung into the object, I don't need to know anything about what caused an object 6 cm long, 2 cm across, with a rounded profile, imparting roughly 1,200 joules per square centimer of force to the side of someone's skull to determine what the impact of that impact was.