Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Inb4 someone hunts these with neutral logi.

To the first part: http://www.helloneighborgame.com/
The fact that yes you can beat this AI is irrelevant. unbeatable AI is not fun. It is supposed to provide an interesting challenge. In eve, I am saying that some more advanced AI does not have to be unbeatable, It has to provide a fight more interesting than usual pve fights.

If you'd like to reread what you just wrote under the second quotation, its kind of redundant. All you did was reinforce my point about AI being a good learning tool. You said yourself there are gaps in your own knowledge, despite being a long time player. All you did was regurgitate what I said about their being a rock paper scissors element to eve, but a skilled player can tilt a fight in their favour.

The third part about d-scan and so on is, in my opinion, a good thing. It would make pvp a little stale if you could learn so many mechanics against fighting bots (Which is why these duelists should be uncommon and random), and so it is good that there is so much more to eve than just 1v1 fights. Learning these mechanics is not the primary focus of these duelists. the primary focus is providing an interesting, challenging fight.

The forth part is your strongest part in my opinion. wild pvp is quite different to 1v1 pvp. However as I said it is not the main focus of these encounters. And that being said, there is still a lot of room to learn intricate pvp mechanics.

the last part about guild wars is kind of a moot point. I doubt either of us can back up our claims so I'm going to say in my hypothesis, I disagree, but would be interested to learn the real answer. In any case, I believe that having these duelists would incline more people to try out real pvp.

This is so very much important if not the most important thing you can say.

I forgot to say something about The Most Dangerous Game.

Just like they did with missions, incursions, sleepers, burners, mordus/clone rats, officers, drifters and whatever other 'advanced NPCs' CCP have added over the years?

Well, yes exactly

And what do you think I believe these rats to do?

Hint: those NPCs Danika mentioned were intended and designed to be very difficult and behave in ways that players do... meaning that players would be forced to adopt some PvP tactics to succeed against them... which they did.


And yet some of the biggest collections and organizations of players that center around those NPCs try to avoid any and all forms of PvP.

And then they ask for buffs and/or scream against any nerfs to the rewards and/or bellow for more protections against players who interfere with their little niche.

Which draws in more players into their niche.
Which then creates a feedback loop of more players asking for more benefits and/or protections.
Which reinforces the feedback loop.
Which draws more players in.
Rinse and repeat.


And yes, I know this because I am speaking from 7 years of in-game experience and lurking the forums here.

For example:
Incursions were meant to be a way for players to compete with one another, create communities, and encourage people to seek more rewards (in riskier environments)... maybe even encourage people to PvP more to keep others from achieving those rewards
The DEVs succeeded with the first two points... and failed with the third and half-failed with the fourth.


Almost no one seeks out low-sec and null-sec Incursions except for the locals who live in said areas already.

And god forbid you nerf high-sec Incursions to make the low-sec and null-sec ones more attractive. ***
The community that has grown around high-sec Incursions will stage a virtual hissy fit on the forums (which they have before), sign petitions (which they have before), and threaten to quit the game altogether (which they have before).

*** (NOTE: to put it in perspective, you can potentially earn hundreds of millions, to billions doing high-sec incursions... low-sec and null-sec Incursion rewards start in the billions to TENS of billions).


As for the PvP aspect... a bunch of cheeky players decided to "role play" as sympathizers of the NPCs that were part of the Incursions.
So they went around attempting to suicide gank the Incursion community, infiltrating their groups to sow chaos, aggression shenanigans, declaring war... you name it.
And the Incursion community SCREAMED at this and routinely asked the DEVs to "do something about their plight."



So forgive us if we are a bit leery of "add new NPCs for new opportunities" or dubious of claims of "this NPC will encourage people to go out and try PvP."

We have yet to see such a thing happen.

You're missing the entire point of the emergent AI on display with the mining fleets.

The mining fleet AI is put there specifically to **** with the status quo of the system they are in. In this case, to be a disruptive influence on player mining operations.

What you are suggesting is another "PVE in a bottle" system that is just as anti-sandbox as the existing mission and deadspace mechanics. It adds nothing of worth to the game because it can not be repurposed as a tool by players, and because it does nothing to serve as an obstacle to players.

The entire point of this procedural AI stuff is to make the NPCs part of EVE rather than something that chills out far away from anything players give a **** about waiting to be shot.

The mining fleet AIs actively get in the way of players by mining rocks that players want to mine. They can be actively used as tools by players by hav ing high standings to get friendly reps. This makes them an important consideration for player to player interactions in the area, and makes that system different than the next system over as a result.

Successful emergent AI means that the AI needs to function as either a roadblock, a tool, or both for players. It means that moving in to higher security space displays a greater amount of NPC activity that isn't simply window dressing, but that can be actively exploited by players in their interactions with one another. This should work in stark contrast to sov null, where none of these things exist because NPC organizations have no hold there.

An example of emergent AI I've seen that fits this description is "distress calls" from NPC corps you have higher standings with. That's a TOOL used by a player to find people to kill. You get high standings with Mordu's? Now you might get warpable coords if someone is doing a mordus site in your system. That same system is now a ROADBLOCK for the player doing the site. This PVE AI has now enhanced EVE as a whole by creating interesting situations for players.

Other examples of worthwhile PvE AI that makes NPCs actually important to the game and encourages rather than discourages player interaction and creative use of AIs:

Random NPC bubble camps in npc null. (ROADBLOCK-low standings gettin shot up. TOOL-Higher standings getting a camp to exploit) This makes residents of NPC null advantaged over those passing through by virtue of getting in good with the "sov holders"

CONCORD marshalls in losec. Officers that roam losec systems, looking to dispense justice, randomly warping to various celestial/belt/station/gate points in system every ten minutes or so. The Marshall is a hard tackle cyno. He'll try to scram/web criminals and light a cyno for a CONCORD fleet. (ROADBLOCK-low sec status wants to stay off grid with these guys. TOOL-Higher sec status can exploit the marshall for cover.)

PIRATE marshalls, also in losec. Basically the opposite of CONCORD marshalls. Extra entertainment ensues if these two randomly end up on grid with each other.

FLASHPOINT. Warring factions (pick two) at border regions exhibiting a contest over a station or other point of interest. Both factions attempt player-similar tactics for fleet fighting including gate control. Engaging these forces is a direct standings gain/loss and LP farm. (ROADBLOCK-low standings gets you shot at. TOOL-higher standings gets you bros on grid. Advantage - neutrality!)

Planetary Proxy War: Planetary warring factions offer up bounties for orbital strikes (eyyy, remember orbital strike modules?) basically replacing the DUST players with NPC activity and DUST regions with **** that matters. You can go there and orbital strike **** for them, gain standings, and earn PI output bonuses on that planet. Alternately you can start a war by paying off planetary militias to **** up other people's PI chains, as well as delivering troops via POCOs. Planetary forces use a very simple double ended bar that Gains +progress over time for both sides. Orbital striking them cuts that progress bar for whoever you orbital striked. (ROADBLOCK-People can wage war on your PI with their ISK and orbital strike modules. TOOL-You can wage war on THEIR PI too. Also may lead to actual formal spaceship war.)