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Skill time gates are killing us alphas

Author
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#121 - 2016-12-23 23:43:32 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:


You realize that the subscription based MMO almost doesn't exist anymore right? So lets take an almost insurmountably complex game, a toxic player community, and throw new players in with insurmountable restrictions on top. Yeah, that'll work out well.

Oh man. I agree with you on this one, especially in tone. You sure you're a new player? (I'm not heh)
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2016-12-23 23:51:09 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:

You guys really need to stop going the angle that people can't afford it so then they suck. People. don't. want. to. pay. every. freakin. month. to. play. a. video. game.

This is true. People are put off by the requirement to pay just for the privilege of logging in. It's dated, like data usage restrictions on landline internet service.

Things on the internet used to impress people but it's normal now. It's not hard to figure out what was programmed once and hasn't been touched. People want to play new content and pay for new effort.

They want to be impressed with what they see every month and I think this is a healthy demand to come from the player side. At the other end of this spectrum are fanboys who insist the game is fine, but that makes you complacent.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2016-12-24 00:04:20 UTC
Does it really seem okay to pay a subscription for a game where you are the biggest source of content
Pix Severus
Empty You
#124 - 2016-12-24 00:10:08 UTC
"Give them an inch and they'll take a mile."

This is a phrase that CCP know very well. A few years ago they gave away some rather expensive Christmas gifts, and players whined when they were given "useless" novelty items in subsequent years.

This is also something many players also know all too well, having seen their playstyle nerfed into the ground over and over, and still have other players crying for Just One More Nerf™.

For some players it will never be enough, so my stance on Alpha accounts at the moment is not to give a single inch, or they will be crying out for that entire mile in short order.

MTU Hunter: Latest Entry - June 12 2017 - Vocal Local 5

MTU Hunting 101: Comprehensive Guide

Doddy
Excidium.
#125 - 2016-12-24 00:18:36 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
You do realize that 15 dollars a month adds up. Do the math if you are capable. I guarantee you that the total is more than what I pay for clothes annually. Most people probably pay more but I don't spend 100 dollars a month on clothes.


...what? EVE is $180/year if you subscribe monthly (I can do the math, 15 x 12 = 180, see?), less if you do it annually. Let's say you play 10 hours/week (which is low for most people) that's 520 hours/year, so $0.34 per hour. Name any other form of entertainment that you can get for $0.34/hour.

If you can't afford that, stop playing games and spend time studying to get a better job.

Talking about clothes, four dress shirts for work cost more than an annual subscription to this game.


Never said I couldn't afford it it's do I really wan't to pay it? There are plenty of games out there that are FREE or you pay ONCE and that's it. Including AAA games like D3 or Guild Wars 2 (which is an MMO by the way) Do I really need to subscribe? So frankly, "is there other forms of entertainment"? yes....free.

You guys really need to stop going the angle that people can't afford it so then they suck. People. don't. want. to. pay. every. freakin. month. to. play. a. video. game.


Well that is their choice isn't it. So why come on here and cry about it. Why are you trying to play a subscription based game without subscribing?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2016-12-24 00:21:17 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

I've probably achieved more than most alpha's due to my playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2003 and a love of sci fi.

However, if you expect me to twiddle my thumbs for 6 months so I can be a half-***ed character in a half-***ed ship with half-***ed modules you've got another thing coming.

In 3 days with a trial account before it went to an unlimited trail account, I had successfully tought 3 other new players how to earn ISK with T1 equipment and work together to accomplish things they would normally not be able to do alone. During that time we all made close to 300m

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#127 - 2016-12-24 01:58:36 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Knitram Relik wrote:
You're already getting more than what you're paying for. You're welcome.


This sort of attitude is not encouraging anyone to stick around. Want alpha's to stick around? Throw us a bone.

The 'bone' you are being thrown is the fact that you do not have to pay a subscription to play the game. Alpha characters train at half speed and are restricted for a reason. CCP wants you to subscribe or PLEX.

That is it. Yes, that is all.

If it really bothers you that it takes that long to train, buy two PLEX or subscribe for two months, train at Omega speed (normal) and get all the skills that alpha toons can train. At the end of your two months, you got a fully skilled alpha toon and can continue to play Eve Online...free.

If that is not feasable for you, then 'suck it up buttercup', HTFU and quit complaining. Alpha toons are not entitled to anything beyond playing the game for free.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#128 - 2016-12-24 02:24:13 UTC
Alphas put more fish in the tank so technically there is a benefit to subscribing players.

Berating new players, especially the ones who haven't committed is a mistake because they may not play but they'll possibly go out of their way to tell other people,"**** that game it sucks." Not just in person but on another forum where wayyy more people could be influenced.

You are hurting the game by acting this way. This player spent weeks trying to figure out the game and doesn't see why they should sub. EVE isn't the most intuitive or popular experience so this reaction shouldn't be a mystery to anyone.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2016-12-24 02:33:56 UTC
agreed. the half training speed is an artifical limiter so alphas dont max out their limited skill tree quickly.

trial accounts trained at the normal speed and when trials became alphas they lost half of their training speed.
it was a major league douche move in addition to limited ships to races.
that ones almost funny because people say no pirate ships without realizing how silly they sound when pirate ships could just be made omega only like many other omega things and it would completely remove their entire argument that clones would fly pirate frigates and be op.
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#130 - 2016-12-24 02:58:08 UTC
Skilling up gives me something to do while being an alpha male, sorry alpha clone.

In that respect it means I spend some time connecting with EVE every so often, if only to restart a skill queue.

The tricky part is that I don't really care to do much else, apart from post on these forums, which I am doing because of the occasional logging in.

Which highlights another part of EVE, for me at least, the content that is the forums. Let's not say social media, Twitter and Facebook make me vomit.

If I was a paying account I'd be mining or doing some pirates in. I'm boring that way.

But the forums are another animal entirely, a living part of the game of their own. Usually bound down by silly rules and reinforced by volunteers that are rewarded for being good players by being turned into police. While at the same time posters that diverge and create discussion are rarely rewarded, apart from a few likes, possibly. Depends on the game I guess.

So allowing skill queues for alphas has brought me back to spend some time with EVE.
Even if I never use the skills I am training.
By bringing me back to the game to login to train some skills, I've started to read forums again, and in essence begun creating content for CCP; in that I post, and "Like" posts, and spend time clicking on their website.

So the longer skill training takes, the better, as far as my connection to EVE goes, at this stage.

That may just be me though, I've made tens of thousands of posts on various game forums. Perhaps I need a game that focuses on posting on forums. :)

*in space nobody can hear you post on forums*

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~

mkint
#131 - 2016-12-24 03:49:12 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
mkint wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
mkint wrote:
So a question for the people who support the status quo... it's obvious why allowing alphas the full skill tree would be a bad thing for everyone. But what's wrong with allowing alphas the normal training speed?

(And don't say it's an incentive to sub, it's just as much an incentive to quit entirely, not give the game a real chance, and it's hypocritical to say they need to be patient when we're not willing to be patient ourselves in waiting for them to decide if they want to sub.)


Skill point farming.

Can't farm skillpoints on an alpha. Not in a meaningful way. That's what SP limits are for and alpha skills can't be extracted. No matter how you do it, you can ONLY extract SP you've paid for.

Any other ways training speed limits protect omegas, EVE, or CCP?


(TLDR Version: rough breakdown of SP farming both as alpha farms and omega farms, as well as rate of return for investment and why 2x training speed for alphas would break the market, resulting in a loss of money for ccp from those accounts)



First thing: [citation needed] The way I understand it, what you're saying is being done, can't be done. ALL skills extracted come from paid accounts, period. The skills that can be trained on alphas can't be extracted. I'll grant that faster alpha training speed would set up a skill farm faster, but it would not increase the rate the character is farmed. And already there's no limit to how broad a skill farm can go. I could sign up a thousand alphas right now if I wanted, get them maxed out, and crash the market all by my lonesome the following month. And since this apparently isn't done already, makes me think: [citation needed].

Secondly: the feel goods that omegas get for alphas being slow training... every alpha player, every player paid or not, who's contributing to the game, who's creating content, adds real financial value to the game, in addition to creating new revenue opportunities. I'd say an active alpha is probably worth MORE as an asset than the $15/month an inactive omega pays.

So, the big question, the question I have not seen really answered satisfactorily, does the nerfed training speed add anything to the game, or does it detract from the game. I'd point out that the sooner an alpha hits their max skills the sooner they have incentive to sub. The sooner they can feel effective in the game, the more likely they are to stick around long enough to sub at all, although that's probably a big ol' [citation needed] as well.

Disclaimer: I have no horse in this race. I am a maxed out alpha, I have nothing to gain. This isn't even a topic I've seen many alphas even complaining about, so I don't even feel like I'm speaking on behalf of anyone. I just can't think of a legitimate reason for the current system other than making omegas feel l33t.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#132 - 2016-12-24 03:56:23 UTC
Well, does it really matter how long it takes to max out an alpha toon?

I don't think so due to the fact that they are playing for free and it doesn't hurt for that length of time so they can learn the game. It is also incentive to annoy the alpha player and give them the choice of getting a PLEX or subscription and bypass that. Like I said before, CCP did this slow training and restriction so they would want to buy a PLEX or subscribe to bypass those restrictions.

CCP isn't going to change their mind and lift those restrictions on alpha clones because they are there for a reason.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2016-12-24 04:15:39 UTC
Do you think it's accurate to say it takes six months to figure out enough about the game to make an informed decision anyway? Without knowing what having skills feels like, does a reduced training speed accomplish anything besides sucking objectively harder. Alphas are also limited by ship class, skill caps, and racial ship trees. So doesn't that mean alphas are more like F1/2P
mkint
#134 - 2016-12-24 04:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Well, does it really matter how long it takes to max out an alpha toon?

I don't think so due to the fact that they are playing for free and it doesn't hurt for that length of time so they can learn the game. It is also incentive to annoy the alpha player and give them the choice of getting a PLEX or subscription and bypass that. Like I said before, CCP did this slow training and restriction so they would want to buy a PLEX or subscribe to bypass those restrictions.

CCP isn't going to change their mind and lift those restrictions on alpha clones because they are there for a reason.

I'd suggest it's just as much incentive to quit as it is to sub. If not moreso. And then EVE loses because those people are now probably gone forever.

Rain6637 wrote:
Do you think it's accurate to say it takes six months to figure out enough about the game to make an informed decision anyway? Without knowing what having skills feels like, does a reduced training speed accomplish anything besides sucking objectively harder. Alphas are also limited by ship class, skill caps, and racial ship trees. So doesn't that mean alphas are more like F1/2P


I'm not worried about the free stuff. When someone's complaining anywhere about the limited skill tree, my response is to tell them they just suck at having fun. But finding the balance between fun and suck is what game design is all about. Does the limited skill training speed help or hurt that balance?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Kreutz Ikeyaseki
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2016-12-24 04:34:24 UTC
mkint wrote:
So, the big question, the question I have not seen really answered satisfactorily, does the nerfed training speed add anything to the game, or does it detract from the game. I'd point out that the sooner an alpha hits their max skills the sooner they have incentive to sub.


As I said earlier, this is completely wrong in my case. Right now, with half training speed and less tahn 1 million SP, I have an incentive to sub and get full training speed. Without that boost, I have no incentive to sub until I hit ~4 million SP.

Quote:
The sooner they can feel effective in the game, the more likely they are to stick around long enough to sub at all, although that's probably a big ol' [citation needed] as well.


I think this one is very dependent on personal viewpoint. I am having a lot of fun in the game, therefore I want to sub and stick around. I feel I can do many things effectively enough to enjoy myself, even though I'm less effective than others doing the same thing. I'm looking at what's out there to try, and trying it.

Whereas the OP seems to be looking at what's out there to try, deciding other people do it better, and not bothering. He seems to equate fun with being as effective as a veteran player, that until you pass a certain SP threshold, fun is disabled. I think with that mentality, you'll never really enjoy things. There are always going to be people with more skillpoints, more experience, flying ships you can't.

I am still curious as to what the OP feels he is prevented from doing, stuff he could do with double training speed. I'm curious if there's stuff he can't do for 6 weeks due to training speed, if he'd really be any happier being forced to wait 3 weeks to do it with omega training speed.

My own list of stuff I feel like I can't do due to being a new alpha, which will no doubt expand as I discover more stuff:
Trading/hauling for profit - don't have the capital needed, don't get access to a decent hauling ship as an alpha, and it'd take significant time to get one as omega anyway.
Solo pvp - feel like I'll inevitably lose any 1v1 fight.
wormholes - use them as shortcuts, sure. But I think the explorer sites inside them are too hard/too dangerous.
And that's more or less it so far.

Mining, exploring, missions, group pvp, I feel like I can try all of them, have fun with them, even if I'm restricted in how I do them. Can't do level2+ missions, can't be effective in a non-frigate in pvp, can't use anything beyond a venture, and so on. But I don't think omega status will change that much. It'll still take time to get into harder/more advanced versions of those things.

I certainly want the wait to be shorter, in fact that's the major reason causing me to sub. But I don't see that I'm held back from trying the game and seeing if it's for me. If I needed instant gratification when it comes to my desire to try the more advanced stuff, then alpha or omega doesn't matter, as it just changes the wait from too long to too long. If I needed that instant gratification, then I don't think the current version of the game would be for me. But equally, if the game offered that instant gratification, then I don't think that game would be for the current version of me, I think it'd be a play for a month or two and get bored and never touch again, just like so many of the very good games I've played in the past and finished, or got bored with the repetitiveness of.
mkint
#136 - 2016-12-24 04:40:55 UTC
Kreutz Ikeyaseki wrote:
mkint wrote:
So, the big question, the question I have not seen really answered satisfactorily, does the nerfed training speed add anything to the game, or does it detract from the game. I'd point out that the sooner an alpha hits their max skills the sooner they have incentive to sub.


As I said earlier, this is completely wrong in my case. Right now, with half training speed and less tahn 1 million SP, I have an incentive to sub and get full training speed. Without that boost, I have no incentive to sub until I hit ~4 million SP.

Quote:
The sooner they can feel effective in the game, the more likely they are to stick around long enough to sub at all, although that's probably a big ol' [citation needed] as well.


I think this one is very dependent on personal viewpoint. I am having a lot of fun in the game, therefore I want to sub and stick around. I feel I can do many things effectively enough to enjoy myself, even though I'm less effective than others doing the same thing. I'm looking at what's out there to try, and trying it.

[a bunch of great attitude]


I really do like your attitude. I'm interested in stories. And while your story is the kind that will probably go on to include a lot of leadership stuff in EVE (really, you're gonna kickass in this game) I'm also interested in the stories of those who just quietly decide "nah, not worth the time" without ever discovering what you've discovered.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#137 - 2016-12-24 04:45:54 UTC
The only ship type that I feel the alpha clones should have access to is the Mining Barge (and the minimum skills needed), albeit only to level 1 or 2. Otherwise, I think alpha clones can do what omega clones can somewhat do, just not as good. They have access to faction frigates and cruisers just like omega toons do.

I still believe the limitations should stay, including the training time. Eve Online is all about the journey, not the destination.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#138 - 2016-12-24 04:54:28 UTC
mkint wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Well, does it really matter how long it takes to max out an alpha toon?

I don't think so due to the fact that they are playing for free and it doesn't hurt for that length of time so they can learn the game. It is also incentive to annoy the alpha player and give them the choice of getting a PLEX or subscription and bypass that. Like I said before, CCP did this slow training and restriction so they would want to buy a PLEX or subscribe to bypass those restrictions.

CCP isn't going to change their mind and lift those restrictions on alpha clones because they are there for a reason.

I'd suggest it's just as much incentive to quit as it is to sub. If not moreso. And then EVE loses because those people are now probably gone forever.

People will always have an incentive to quit whether it is a sub or not. With an Omega clone, you are paying money to realize you don't like the game.

With an Alpha clone, it just requires time to realize if this game is for you or not. For a couple of people who thought of starting this game and asking me, I always told them to start off as an Alpha clone and if they liked the game, go Omega and experience the difference between F2P and a paying subscription, which most MMOs are heading towards now. The paying subscription was always better and more attractive but for some of those MMOs, I didn't want to go that far.
Netan MalDoran
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#139 - 2016-12-24 06:46:19 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Hey Helix Coils, how many hours have you played so far? What have you tried out in the game

I think this is an understandable reaction to playing EVE for most people, and I'm just curious what you think about what you've experienced.

Did you try to do something specific that you couldn't complete due to ship skills?


Excellent question. I think this character is about 3 weeks old. I've started about 9 characters trying out different races and strategies then sold everything off to this character.

I don't have any expectation to be able to pvp any time soon as an alpha so I've been focusing on high sec combat sites and wormhole exploration. I've dabbled in market trading, hauling, and mining. Even when avoiding the obvious problems an alpha will encounter, I still have a very hard time scanning down sites (using sister probes and the best fits I can use) with my current skills.

I just don't know what it is I'm supposed to be able to accomplish at this point.


I got a rl friend to join eve and he got his first solo kill at day 6 with alpha usable equipment, he was quite happy c:

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#140 - 2016-12-24 07:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Rain6637 wrote:
Do you think it's accurate to say it takes six months to figure out enough about the game to make an informed decision anyway? Without knowing what having skills feels like, does a reduced training speed accomplish anything besides sucking objectively harder. Alphas are also limited by ship class, skill caps, and racial ship trees. So doesn't that mean alphas are more like F1/2P

Once I had made the final decision to leave my very good WoW community behind for good, it took me about 4 weeks of reading up stuff about EVE as preparation. When I finally started the trial I was able to make an informed decision and subbed 3 days after starting the trial.

Been longer with EVE by now then I ever was with WoW.

So no, it doesn't take six months.

Remove standings and insurance.