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Skill time gates are killing us alphas

Author
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2016-12-23 15:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
mkint wrote:
<- Former paid, now maxed out alpha. I kinda agree with the OP, or at least I'm open to the idea. Longevity of anything is based on the balance of the fun vs suck ratio. Yes there is plenty of fun to be had on an alpha account. If parts of it didn't suck as well, there wouldn't be a sense of accomplishment, so both have the be present and balanced. Where I can support the OP (even though it sounds like another self entitled whine thread) is that most alpha skills are basic support skill, not advanced skills. The same skills that people are talking about when saying "don't fly what you don't have the support skills for." Well, we're talking about the support skills for frigates! That old advice is now basically telling alphas "start up an account, do nothing except manage your skill queue for a few months, then start playing the game." Which is all suck, no fun.

This old advice was wrong in past and it is wrong in present.

I have never cared about support skills. Always jumped to ship i wanted to even having no appropriate guns, modules ,drones, etc... My first lost Vexor had mixed guns, my first lost Myrmidon had 3 types of tank (active shield, active armor and active hull repairers) and capacitor lasted for like 30 seconds. First lvl4s i was doing in Myrmidon with t1 250mm guns! To make it easier i jumped to Dominix and used the same equipment. And once i got 500 million ISK i bought and started to use Navy Dominix.

And know what? Yes, i had tough times doing missions (i remember doing lvl4s in fleet of like 5-10 players like me), i was losing in pvp (never having a chance)... But i never wasted time 'sitting docked and waiting for skills'. I was flying, losing ships, winning sometime and having fun.

The same was with learning skills: i was only training them to speed-up my long skill plans. Never delayed my needed skills because 'else i will lose SP competition'.

And 7 years down the road i'm here and still having fun.

TLDR: Skill training and/or amount is not a problem. What you do with your time is the thing which matters. If you don't play and wait for some 'MANDATORY' skills to get trained then it is you your worst enemy.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2016-12-23 15:15:27 UTC
meh. EVE is the baked potato of video games. Toss one in the oven because you might want one sometime this year, etc.

I go for months (and on a couple occasions, years) subscribed just to accumulate SP for when I will have time to play again. When I started out it was right before I joined the Army, and started three characters. I got back after three years and had 50 million SP characters.

It's still true now, that you could try letting the character gain SP and go play other games in the meantime. This is a real strategy for a lot of EVE players.

Like, if you think the game is going to suck for now, but will be better later, come back later. Great thing is it doesn't have to cost anything, just time.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2016-12-23 15:18:44 UTC
Another thing is you will have that 6 million SP and find it's not that much of a difference.

Then three years later you have 60 million SP and realize that's not a game changer either.

It's never really about the SP. I just subscribe because it's, I don't know, a matter of being thorough. Oh and I mostly just like posting on forums and that's not even limited to paid subscriptions so I guess my EVE subs are back on the chopping block when it comes time to evaluate my spending.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-12-23 15:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Helix Coils wrote:


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

What exactly do you want to do where you think you can't as an Alpha? My impression is that you, as many new players not used to EvE, overrate skillpoints.

Most of the things profitable and fun in EvE do need training and personal skills rather than a maxed out character. Scanning for example, you can scan down any signature in EvE (except sleeper caches) with 76 probe scan strength, using expierience and custom probe formations. I know because I'm scanning in unbonused ships for 3 years, and often being faster than my competition in their covops. The other example is industry, as an Alpha you can do T1 module manufacturing, and I know a dozen who can make you decent profits. You have to understand the market and how things work, nothing skillpoints will help you with.

So much to the solo activities, you know skillpoints matter even less, when you are in fleet ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Doddy
Excidium.
#65 - 2016-12-23 15:52:26 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
I can accept that even maxed out an alpha can't compete with an omega toe to toe. I can accept that we are gimped with what ships we can fly, modules we can use, skills we can use etc.

However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.


If your enjoyment relates to skilltraining you are in the wrong game.
mkint
#66 - 2016-12-23 15:56:41 UTC
Herbert G Wells wrote:

The entire point of Alpha is to give you a taste and make you want more, at which point you sub. That's it. That's all it's for.


According to the devs who, you know, put alphas into the game, the point of alphas is to increase activity in the game and that being an alpha should be fun on its own. The claim of the OP, which isn't completely unfounded is that the gimped training speed reduces the amount of fun. The question that matters is if it becomes so unfun that it makes the game not worth playing. The voices here that matter aren't the "well, I'm hooked" it's the silent voices that just say to themselves "well that was dumb" and leave.

This is the age of the internet, where eyeballs are the most valuable thing in the world. By playing the game at all, Alphas are increasing the value of the game. If we lose warm bodies, the game loses its value. That's the discussion that matters in this thread.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Demonspawn 666
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2016-12-23 15:58:00 UTC
Kreutz Ikeyaseki wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:



[quote]Will happily send you some isk when I get home from work, enjoy, spend it on something ridiculously overpriced, take it out and get it blown up, enjoy the cool explosion, shake with adrenaline , repeat ad infinitum.


And very much thanks if you do that. Already had my first moment like that. In a wormhole in my heron, made a safe, scanning down the sigs to hopefully find another wormhole to low or null with nobody in it. I don't think I was checking dscan enough, I saw a nemesis, then I saw nothing, never saw probes, but suddenly had a nemesis and I think a helios appear right by me. They targeted me, they put some sort of debuff on me, but they apparently forgot to tackle, and I warped out, heart beating wildly. And now I think I'm hooked. Big smile


Glad to hear!

some isk sent from my jita alt, hope it comes in useful!
will buy a few replacement herons P

The Dirty Rejects are recruiting!
Come play with me...... I like being played with!

TDR Recruitment

mkint
#68 - 2016-12-23 16:06:32 UTC
So a question for the people who support the status quo... it's obvious why allowing alphas the full skill tree would be a bad thing for everyone. But what's wrong with allowing alphas the normal training speed?

(And don't say it's an incentive to sub, it's just as much an incentive to quit entirely, not give the game a real chance, and it's hypocritical to say they need to be patient when we're not willing to be patient ourselves in waiting for them to decide if they want to sub.)

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2016-12-23 16:10:18 UTC
mkint wrote:
So a question for the people who support the status quo... it's obvious why allowing alphas the full skill tree would be a bad thing for everyone. But what's wrong with allowing alphas the normal training speed?

(And don't say it's an incentive to sub, it's just as much an incentive to quit entirely, not give the game a real chance, and it's hypocritical to say they need to be patient when we're not willing to be patient ourselves in waiting for them to decide if they want to sub.)


Skill point farming.
Demonspawn 666
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2016-12-23 16:23:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
mkint wrote:
So a question for the people who support the status quo... it's obvious why allowing alphas the full skill tree would be a bad thing for everyone. But what's wrong with allowing alphas the normal training speed?

(And don't say it's an incentive to sub, it's just as much an incentive to quit entirely, not give the game a real chance, and it's hypocritical to say they need to be patient when we're not willing to be patient ourselves in waiting for them to decide if they want to sub.)


Skill point farming.


What he said ^^^^^

The Dirty Rejects are recruiting!
Come play with me...... I like being played with!

TDR Recruitment

Helix Coils
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#71 - 2016-12-23 16:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Helix Coils
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
EVE is a game of patience. Unlike many other games out there a good many EVE players are not younguns. We tend towards the thirty somthings and beyond. It is NOT an instant gratification game, instead lumbering along with the notion of 'good things come to those who wait'.
The daring, the bold, the reckless and the heedless to danger can enjoy all that EVE has to offer with 'relative' speed.
By relative I mean months in EVE are the equivalent to weeks in other games... patience is measured in years.
No matter what, you have to make sure that you set your OWN standards for what you consider high-end or endgame content to be. You then work slowly and inexorably towards said goals.
Nothing is going to be handed to you. There is no free lunch. People will strive to take what is yours from you and it's up to you and you alone to keep them from doing so.
That said, keep on at it. The journey is a trip if you let it be.


Thank you for the advice. I shall continue to soldier on mainly because no other MMO really offers much of a challenge to me. I just hope it isn't an exercise in futility.
Herbert G Wells
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2016-12-23 16:58:13 UTC
mkint wrote:
Herbert G Wells wrote:

The entire point of Alpha is to give you a taste and make you want more, at which point you sub. That's it. That's all it's for.


According to the devs who, you know, put alphas into the game, the point of alphas is to increase activity in the game and that being an alpha should be fun on its own. The claim of the OP, which isn't completely unfounded is that the gimped training speed reduces the amount of fun. The question that matters is if it becomes so unfun that it makes the game not worth playing. The voices here that matter aren't the "well, I'm hooked" it's the silent voices that just say to themselves "well that was dumb" and leave.

This is the age of the internet, where eyeballs are the most valuable thing in the world. By playing the game at all, Alphas are increasing the value of the game. If we lose warm bodies, the game loses its value. That's the discussion that matters in this thread.


That is literally what I said. Alphas are here to give you a taste and make you want more. Want being the operative word. If they were meant to be an end unto themselves, they would not be as limited, would they?
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#73 - 2016-12-23 17:15:36 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Herbert G Wells wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

I've probably achieved more than most alpha's due to my playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2003 and a love of sci fi.

However, if you expect me to twiddle my thumbs for 6 months so I can be a half-***ed character in a half-***ed ship with half-***ed modules you've got another thing coming.


The entire point of Alpha is to give you a taste and make you want more, at which point you sub. That's it. That's all it's for.


Then why the change from trial then? I don't get it.


Because the trial is only 14 days, which is not even the slightest bit enough to get a taste of all the possible career paths the game has to offer. The unlimited free trial, or as CCP called it, Alpha clones (F2P totally not unlimited free trial or anything), is much better in that it allows the players the ability to try things out for as long as they want before deciding to sub.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aubrey Addams
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2016-12-23 17:29:06 UTC
mkint
#75 - 2016-12-23 17:31:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
mkint wrote:
So a question for the people who support the status quo... it's obvious why allowing alphas the full skill tree would be a bad thing for everyone. But what's wrong with allowing alphas the normal training speed?

(And don't say it's an incentive to sub, it's just as much an incentive to quit entirely, not give the game a real chance, and it's hypocritical to say they need to be patient when we're not willing to be patient ourselves in waiting for them to decide if they want to sub.)


Skill point farming.

Can't farm skillpoints on an alpha. Not in a meaningful way. That's what SP limits are for and alpha skills can't be extracted. No matter how you do it, you can ONLY extract SP you've paid for.

Any other ways training speed limits protect omegas, EVE, or CCP?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#76 - 2016-12-23 17:33:47 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
But still, very much agree people need to stop whining in regards to alpha restrictions, it is getting very tedious.

People come here from other f2p titles and expect something similar. CCP after all advertises this as f2p.

I wrote when they first revealed their plans for alphas that people will complain about all the massive paywalls everywhere since they will compare it to other f2p titles out there and not to what EVE was before the change.

It was extremely obvious this would happen and it will not end just because someone says "grow up people".



its like the people bitching about super mario run. it took me a whole 2 min to figure out it will cost me $10 if i want it. Yet people act suprized they have the pay for the whole game. Its weird where gamers are now.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Helix Coils
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#77 - 2016-12-23 17:59:48 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
But still, very much agree people need to stop whining in regards to alpha restrictions, it is getting very tedious.

People come here from other f2p titles and expect something similar. CCP after all advertises this as f2p.

I wrote when they first revealed their plans for alphas that people will complain about all the massive paywalls everywhere since they will compare it to other f2p titles out there and not to what EVE was before the change.

It was extremely obvious this would happen and it will not end just because someone says "grow up people".



its like the people bitching about super mario run. it took me a whole 2 min to figure out it will cost me $10 if i want it. Yet people act suprized they have the pay for the whole game. Its weird where gamers are now.


You realize that the subscription based MMO almost doesn't exist anymore right? So lets take an almost insurmountably complex game, a toxic player community, and throw new players in with insurmountable restrictions on top. Yeah, that'll work out well.
Herbert G Wells
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2016-12-23 18:04:59 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:

You realize that the subscription based MMO almost doesn't exist anymore right?


That has nothing, at all, to do with anything.

Helix Coils wrote:
So lets take an almost insurmountably complex game


Blatantly false, since there are plenty of people playing it.

Helix Coils wrote:
a toxic player community


You have confused "community" with "Some people". You should not.


Helix Coils wrote:
and throw new players in with insurmountable restrictions on top. Yeah, that'll work out well.


The restrictions are not insurmountable at all. You just need to subscribe.

You really haven't understood anything have you? EVE is complex, hence the F2P style Alpha accounts. You can now have a never ending experience in EVE that you couldn't have before. You don't need to spend a single cent to get to know the game, see if you can find a place for you. If you don't find somewhere to call home, you leave and nothing is lost on either side. If you do find your home, we get another willing participant, and you get a great experience. This really isn't rocket science you know.

Helix Coils
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#79 - 2016-12-23 18:09:10 UTC
Herbert G Wells wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:

You realize that the subscription based MMO almost doesn't exist anymore right?


That has nothing, at all, to do with anything.

Helix Coils wrote:
So lets take an almost insurmountably complex game


Blatantly false, since there are plenty of people playing it.

Helix Coils wrote:
a toxic player community


You have confused "community" with "Some people". You should not.


Helix Coils wrote:
and throw new players in with insurmountable restrictions on top. Yeah, that'll work out well.


The restrictions are not insurmountable at all. You just need to subscribe.

You really haven't understood anything have you? EVE is complex, hence the F2P style Alpha accounts. You can now have a never ending experience in EVE that you couldn't have before. You don't need to spend a single cent to get to know the game, see if you can find a place for you. If you don't find somewhere to call home, you leave and nothing is lost on either side. If you do find your home, we get another willing participant, and you get a great experience. This really isn't rocket science you know.



If you are wishing to sway my opinion on any one of these topics you have failed miserably. Try again.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#80 - 2016-12-23 18:10:12 UTC
I honestly don't see how it harms me if alpha players train at the same base speed. If nothing less, they could do so for the first n days of the account. Say 10 or 20, enough to speed them through the very basic skills.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016