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Skill time gates are killing us alphas

Author
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2016-12-23 12:42:34 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:

Yeah that problem of training too many things rather than focusing on something specific. I didn't iron out those mistakes until 70 million SP-ish. Forcing alphas to focus on small ships and in their race is kind of a good thing in a way. Like gutter bumpers at bowling lanes.


it was more due to the starter corp i joined, they wanted everyone to mine and mission run so I had mining skills on both of my main characters which wasnt bad at the time cos it was a little income from the minerals. I joined Stain Alliance for a few days and didnt feel ready for null sec at that time so went back to the starter corp and began investing in purchasing bookmarks for null sec space and skilling towards pvp which is when I noticed I had wasted skill points in mining.

That's not as bad as deciding to train into armor and shield battleships at the same time hah
Alpha Baba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2016-12-23 12:48:19 UTC
I think 80% of the alphas will erode in 2-3 months, and things will go back to the old track.
Kreutz Ikeyaseki
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-12-23 12:49:57 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:

hah what other games do you play? How does the pace of EVE compare to those, and is that better or worse to you? Specifically the pace and what tend to be long periods of quiet.


I have played wow a couple of times. Now that was a free trial that offered nothing. Like what I think is the case in eve, playing solo gets boring. Playing with people is more interesting. Lack of consequences can make it a bit boring. One big difference, especially if you've already played for a bit, is that if you start a new character, you've got about 30-40 hours or more of boring grind before you reach interesting gameplay. Or you drop ~$50 and reduce the grind to 10 hours. Doesn't seem to be the case here, can jump straight into stuff. On the other hand, in wow you can do everything once that grind is over, you don't need to specialise.

I used to play the secret world, which had the best mission design of any game I've ever played, especially the initial stephen king themed zone. . But never really got into the multiplayer side, nor end game content. Felt more like a single player rpg, like fallout, witcher, etc.

And played a wide assortment of single player games stretching right back to wonder boy on the sega as a kid, one of my most memorable gaming moments was next door neighbour in highschool getting a 486 with wing commander, then on to a lot of diablo 2 & starcraft while at uni (giant old 6 bedroom share house with around 10 computers hooked up to lan Smile), civ, moo2, etc, etc.

Pace of eve seems decent. So far, I can mostly dictate the pace myself. Do some missions, just cruise through. Do some mining while 75% of attention is focused elsewhere. Try and get through a wormhole to dangerous space on the other side, and the adrenaline is working even if nothing actually happens. Even if the pace is slow, even if nothing actually happens to me, the game creates that tension of not knowing what is out there, not knowing when you might get a nasty surprise. It's similar to what something like the good Silent Hill games managed in that sense, that it can generate excitement by having nothing happen. That may change later. I might get more complacent about the stuff I find dangerous now. I might feel more bored and be reliant on other players being around. Or I might feel that, have learned a bit by then, and so go out solo searching for fights and inspiring in others what I am feeling now.

The combat, what little I've seen of it, appeals to me far more than it does in games like wow. I've never liked FPS games much, I detest wow's pvp. Seems much more about good tactics, about reacting the right way, about the big picture of what's going on, much more than how fast can you click mouse on exactly the right spot on screen, or run in a circle/through the other person so that you're facing them but they're not facing you. When I die, I'm going to be able to think 'ok, I probably did this wrong' and learn from it. As opposed to the wow reaction of 'how stupid is this'.

I think there are strengths and weaknesses to it being such a sandbox. With the obvious weakness to me being that it won't sustain the fun as a single player game. And the obvious strength being that if something gets boring, just go and try something else. That and the emergent gameplay, that everything has consequences, that you don't just get to reload or respawn without cost.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-12-23 12:54:28 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Knitram Relik wrote:
You're already getting more than what you're paying for. You're welcome.


This sort of attitude is not encouraging anyone to stick around. Want alpha's to stick around? Throw us a bone.

you have it already: free access to the game Attention

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2016-12-23 13:08:11 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
I can accept that even maxed out an alpha can't compete with an omega toe to toe. I can accept that we are gimped with what ships we can fly, modules we can use, skills we can use etc.

However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.


Well then you sure as **** won't like being an omega. then. i've got a 2 month queue lined up to be "halfway competent" at a single ship. and have the next 2 years of training planned out and still won't be even remotely close to being "maxed out"
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2016-12-23 13:12:14 UTC
Kreutz Ikeyaseki wrote:

And played a wide assortment of single player games stretching right back to wonder boy on the sega as a kid, one of my most memorable gaming moments was next door neighbour in highschool getting a 486 with wing commander, then on to a lot of diablo 2 & starcraft while at uni (giant old 6 bedroom share house with around 10 computers hooked up to lan Smile), civ, moo2, etc, etc.

HAH http://i.imgur.com/1NdFBdD.jpg me in college with my buddies' computers in the "lan room." all EVE players

So it sounds to me like you enjoy EVE because it's almost the opposite of a twitch game. That's the appeal for a lot of people. You also sound like a vet so there's that. (one of us, etc)
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2016-12-23 13:53:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
But still, very much agree people need to stop whining in regards to alpha restrictions, it is getting very tedious.

People come here from other f2p titles and expect something similar. CCP after all advertises this as f2p.

I wrote when they first revealed their plans for alphas that people will complain about all the massive paywalls everywhere since they will compare it to other f2p titles out there and not to what EVE was before the change.

It was extremely obvious this would happen and it will not end just because someone says "grow up people".


CCP can't cash shop it's way into profitability like other F2P MMO can. All the cosmetic stuff they managed to sell can be made entirely irrelevant by not going to captain quarter or by zooming out when flying your pimp skinned ship. The whole game model needs to be "sub paywall or bust" since anything else would just cause massive drama.
Immortal Overlord
Doomheim
#48 - 2016-12-23 14:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Immortal Overlord
Kreutz Ikeyaseki wrote:
Immortal Overlord wrote:
Personally, I think CCP should get rid of the half training speed, but keep the cap. I have played EvE for years so I had to deal with learning skills e.t.c.

However whats the point in trying a game at half speed. I will say, If I were new it would put me off alittle.


I'm a new alpha. I'm not experiencing this whole 'can't do anything, I'm only a floating target' thing that the OP is complaining about. Yeah, I'm more or less broke. Yeah, I can't do anything very well. But I can still try it. Can do an okish job of exploring. Can mine ok for a bit of cash while I'm doing other work by computer. Can run missions ok, do most of SOE arc. Apparently I'll need help for a couple of those. Haven't yet, but can apparently do okish job in pvp roams, too. Be a scout, be a tackle, be a very dead bait alpha cluelessly wandering into low security space. I don't think I could fight anybody 1v1, but so what? More to do than any other free trial I've played, more fun than any other free trial I've played, which is why I'll be subbing.

However, if CCP got rid of the half training speed, I wouldn't sub. At least, not yet. Looks like some of the alpha skills are low priority, but looks like there's maybe 3-4 million of the 5 million that are high priority general skills I'm going to want anyway. If I trained at full speed, that'd be 10-12 weeks of training to get those points? So I'd play free for 3 months, and only sub then. Instead, I've played for 2 weeks and will be subbing to get proper training speed. I don't think it'll open up any new gameplay avenues for me in the next 2-3 months, I'll still be new player in basic ships trying to learn the game.


I' glad to see your enjoying the game.

I just think the half speed isn't a good idea. It's still 3 months worth of training at full speed, & yes it's still better than any free trial going or the has ever been.

I don't think the time frame on how quick you complete the alpha skills dictates how quickly someone will sub. Everyone is different.

Hell I remember doing the free trial & I was hooked on day 3. So this avenue CCP have got for new players is great. I can't knock it, apart from the training time. You have to remember 6 months is someones real life. Time is precious.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2016-12-23 14:19:41 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2016-12-23 14:20:31 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
But still, very much agree people need to stop whining in regards to alpha restrictions, it is getting very tedious.

People come here from other f2p titles and expect something similar. CCP after all advertises this as f2p.

I wrote when they first revealed their plans for alphas that people will complain about all the massive paywalls everywhere since they will compare it to other f2p titles out there and not to what EVE was before the change.

It was extremely obvious this would happen and it will not end just because someone says "grow up people".


CCP can't cash shop it's way into profitability like other F2P MMO can. All the cosmetic stuff they managed to sell can be made entirely irrelevant by not going to captain quarter or by zooming out when flying your pimp skinned ship. The whole game model needs to be "sub paywall or bust" since anything else would just cause massive drama.

I think the vanity sales could be pushed harder. The paint of a ship isn't so impressive. We've all seen it before. That any skin any ship bug kind of blew the doors off that plan too.

Next-level cash shop items would be changes to the model of the ship, and not just color but animation of the panels or changing the silhouette of the ship completely.
Kreutz Ikeyaseki
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2016-12-23 14:26:13 UTC
Immortal Overlord wrote:

I' glad to see your enjoying the game.

I just think the half speed isn't a good idea. It's still 3 months worth of training at full speed, & yes it's still better than any free trial going or the has ever been.

I don't think the time frame on how quick you complete the alpha skills dictates how quickly someone will sub. Everyone is different.

Hell I remember doing the free trial & I was hooked on day 3. So this avenue CCP have got for new players is great. I can't knock it, apart from the training time. You have to remember 6 months is someones real life. Time is precious.


I'm hooked that quickly. It's just that if alphas trained at normal speed, then I'd have no incentive to sub right now, as the first 2 months as an omega would be identical to the first 2 months as a full-speed alpha, so there's no benefit to subbing until 2 months down the track.
mkint
#52 - 2016-12-23 14:28:10 UTC
<- Former paid, now maxed out alpha. I kinda agree with the OP, or at least I'm open to the idea. Longevity of anything is based on the balance of the fun vs suck ratio. Yes there is plenty of fun to be had on an alpha account. If parts of it didn't suck as well, there wouldn't be a sense of accomplishment, so both have the be present and balanced. Where I can support the OP (even though it sounds like another self entitled whine thread) is that most alpha skills are basic support skill, not advanced skills. The same skills that people are talking about when saying "don't fly what you don't have the support skills for." Well, we're talking about the support skills for frigates! That old advice is now basically telling alphas "start up an account, do nothing except manage your skill queue for a few months, then start playing the game." Which is all suck, no fun.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#53 - 2016-12-23 14:29:04 UTC
Almost like it creates an inventive to pay
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2016-12-23 14:30:44 UTC
Kreutz Ikeyaseki wrote:
Immortal Overlord wrote:

I' glad to see your enjoying the game.

I just think the half speed isn't a good idea. It's still 3 months worth of training at full speed, & yes it's still better than any free trial going or the has ever been.

I don't think the time frame on how quick you complete the alpha skills dictates how quickly someone will sub. Everyone is different.

Hell I remember doing the free trial & I was hooked on day 3. So this avenue CCP have got for new players is great. I can't knock it, apart from the training time. You have to remember 6 months is someones real life. Time is precious.


I'm hooked that quickly. It's just that if alphas trained at normal speed, then I'd have no incentive to sub right now, as the first 2 months as an omega would be identical to the first 2 months as a full-speed alpha, so there's no benefit to subbing until 2 months down the track.

damn that's a good point. lol
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2016-12-23 14:31:39 UTC
when I type "lol" I'm not typing LOL it's actually a symbol for when I throw my arms in the air like I just don't care

lol
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-12-23 14:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
Oh maan, these "unfair" issues.

Im new to this game and I accept that you start learning from absolute bottom.

I played alpha for a week, I suck at almost every mission. Still i have now 2 omega
accounts just to speed things up and plan ahead.
Hell, i dont even know if Im gonna continue this game.
All I know that its multitudes better and more fair than World of Tanks.

Think of it like this OP, reverse the thought and imagine you have spent years
training a game and then a bunch of triggerhappy freebie riders start out with
the same skills and pre-requsitions as you.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#57 - 2016-12-23 14:46:29 UTC
EVE is a game of patience. Unlike many other games out there a good many EVE players are not younguns. We tend towards the thirty somthings and beyond. It is NOT an instant gratification game, instead lumbering along with the notion of 'good things come to those who wait'.
The daring, the bold, the reckless and the heedless to danger can enjoy all that EVE has to offer with 'relative' speed.
By relative I mean months in EVE are the equivalent to weeks in other games... patience is measured in years.
No matter what, you have to make sure that you set your OWN standards for what you consider high-end or endgame content to be. You then work slowly and inexorably towards said goals.
Nothing is going to be handed to you. There is no free lunch. People will strive to take what is yours from you and it's up to you and you alone to keep them from doing so.
That said, keep on at it. The journey is a trip if you let it be.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Helix Coils
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#58 - 2016-12-23 14:49:55 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

I've probably achieved more than most alpha's due to my playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2003 and a love of sci fi.

However, if you expect me to twiddle my thumbs for 6 months so I can be a half-***ed character in a half-***ed ship with half-***ed modules you've got another thing coming.
Herbert G Wells
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-12-23 14:58:22 UTC
Helix Coils wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

I've probably achieved more than most alpha's due to my playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2003 and a love of sci fi.

However, if you expect me to twiddle my thumbs for 6 months so I can be a half-***ed character in a half-***ed ship with half-***ed modules you've got another thing coming.


The entire point of Alpha is to give you a taste and make you want more, at which point you sub. That's it. That's all it's for.
Helix Coils
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#60 - 2016-12-23 15:00:37 UTC
Herbert G Wells wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Helix Coils wrote:
However this 1/2 speed skill nerf is killing me as far as enjoyment goes. I'm really not willing to wait around 2 weeks to be halfway competent in any one skill tree. 6 months to be "maxed out" Just. No.

Hi, you muse be very new, 6 months is nothing for training time.
Just wait until you want to use a T2 battle ship and have a 30 day wait for one skill, or capital ships which take months to use at the most basic of skill.

If 6 months is too long you probably wont last long even as an Omega clone.


Problem being is that as an omega you have plenty of other things to do that you are productive or efficient at while you wait.
As an alpha there's nothing that fits that bill, and even maxed out I would guess not.

I've probably achieved more than most alpha's due to my playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2003 and a love of sci fi.

However, if you expect me to twiddle my thumbs for 6 months so I can be a half-***ed character in a half-***ed ship with half-***ed modules you've got another thing coming.


The entire point of Alpha is to give you a taste and make you want more, at which point you sub. That's it. That's all it's for.


Then why the change from trial then? I don't get it.