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Light Freighters
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-12-23 04:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Why aren't these implemented yet?


I'll keep it short. I'm getting my numbers by dividing freighter values by deep space transport values, getting the square root, and then multiplying deep space transport values by that square root to find light freighter attributes. Their loadouts closely resemble their racial T1 large industrial.

Purpose: to fill the giant gap between DST and freighter.
DISCLAIMER: Don't bother saying the Orca functions as a light freighter. It doesn't and this has been debunked to death. So if you say it does, expect me to use ASCII charts to show you just how wrong you are. Spare yourself the dignity and spare me the time.

A: Average freighter max cargohold: 1,149,685.25 m3
B: Average DST max cargohold: 68,511.75 m3
A/B = 16.78084781077698351...
(sqrt)A/B = 4.096443312286523453...
Average light freighter max cargohold: 280,654.5 m3



Amarr Light Freighter
3 medium slots, 6 low slots
Cargohold: 33,750 m3
Align time: 26.8s (max skills)

Caldari Light Freighter
5 medium slots, 4 low slots
Cargohold: 58,500 m3
Align time: 28.1s (max skills)

Gallente Light Freighter
4 medium slots, 5 low slots
Cargohold: 44,750 m3
Align time: 27.1s (max skills)

Minmatar Light Freighter
4 medium slots, 5 low slots
Cargohold: 41,500 m3
Align time: 25.5s (max skills)



Hit points, powergrid/CPU, mineral cost, and other attributes are all up for discussion.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2016-12-23 04:47:23 UTC
Because I can get several different cargo transports in the game to a higher cargo capacity than the base on your Light Freighters and all of your examples would be able to get up to the minimum cargo hold on most Freighters because they all have ridiculous Low Slot counts.

In short there's not really any point in this beyond breaking the current Isk/HP curve for gank profitability, something CCP has a pretty vested interest in *not* doing so as to not break the economy.

Oh, also Orcas exist. Those are, in fact, a thing.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-12-23 05:02:03 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Because I can get several different cargo transports in the game to a higher cargo capacity than the base on your Light Freighters and all of your examples would be able to get up to the minimum cargo hold on most Freighters because they all have ridiculous Low Slot counts.

Have you done the math on that? Because you haven't done the math on that. The Caldari Light Freighter (the biggest one) has an absolute max cargohold (with T2 rigs and ORE expanders) of 325,062 m3. That's only 71% of the Fenrir's base cargohold with skill at 1. I think that's a quite reasonable number, given that with skills and modules, the Fenrir can go quite a bit higher.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
In short there's not really any point in this beyond breaking the current Isk/HP curve for gank profitability, something CCP has a pretty vested interest in *not* doing so as to not break the economy.

Howabout the point is to have a hauler between freighter and industrial size? What if there were only frigates and capital ships in EVE, and I suggested implementing battleships? This is like that.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Oh, also Orcas exist. Those are, in fact, a thing.

Don't even go there.
DST Max Cargo: ####
Orca Max Cargo: #######
Freighter Max Cargo: #########################################################

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2016-12-23 05:23:55 UTC
Bulkheads. JF's.
Both of those overlap into the window of cargo space you are claiming exist.

If anything your maths shows that there are serious design flaws with the entire industrial ship design that need fixing before any new ships can even be considered being introduced. Like the way Cargo Expanders don't have stacking penalties yet are a percentage based increase. And the ridiculous way CCP treats industrials as a second rate ship class.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-12-23 06:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bulkheads. JF's.
Both of those overlap into the window of cargo space you are claiming exist.

Freighters with bulkheads have MUCH more EHP and are quite a bit slower than light freighters with cargo expanders. They are very different. Jump freighters aren't even in the same ballpark.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If anything your maths shows that there are serious design flaws with the entire industrial ship design that need fixing before any new ships can even be considered being introduced. Like the way Cargo Expanders don't have stacking penalties yet are a percentage based increase. And the ridiculous way CCP treats industrials as a second rate ship class.

I fully agree that giving cargo expanders a stacking penalty is necessary, and should have been included in the industrial tiericide years ago. As for CCP treating industrials as a second rate ship, I'd say that changed with tiericide. Now we have the Porpoise, the Venture and its variants, the Noctis, and the Rorqual and Freighters have received considerable balance changes. Industrials have been fixed so that each race has one as big as the old Iteron Mk. V, and they no longer have paper tank.

But adding stacking penalty to cargo expansion is easy. Simply take the existing max cargohold and divide it by the max bonus it can get from expanders in the new system. I'd vote for battlecruiser and battleship cargoholds increased along with such a change, but that probably won't happen.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2016-12-23 06:08:12 UTC
it's called an orca

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2016-12-23 06:12:59 UTC
Specifically looking at ships like the porpoise & such, you will note that CCP has decided that gameplay should not require players sitting around in ships that are doing nothing most of the time. This includes the ability of ships like the Porpoise/Orca/Rorqual to mount a reasonable degree of self defence.

Something you are decidedly lacking in your suggestion.

The whole idea of escorts is counter to the idea of active gameplay, since the escort is achieving nothing 99% of the time. Haulers should instead be self escorting (obviously only to some degree) which then creates a push to form small convoys of haulers to get appropriate damage output and support. Since haulers do achieve things simply by travel, namely hauling, that the escorts are dead weight on, just like Orca's now can actively mine, not just sit there doing nothing.

I still believe you are trying to fill a slot that doesn't exist, and that a proper rebalance of the existing cargo ships would already fill this slot just fine, in that the T1 'larger' freighter should fill the slot while the DST is a specialised super tanky and better DPS output version of the 'tanky' T1 industrial.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-12-23 06:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it's called an orca

What's called an Orca? That glorified DST-that's-not-as-good-as-a-DST?



Base Warp Speed
Occator: . . . . #################################
Orca: . . . . . . ####################
Obelisk: . . . . ##############

Warp Speed with Hyperspatial Accelerators
Occator: . . . . ##########################################
Orca: . . . . . . ##########################
Obelisk: . . . . #######################



Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This includes the ability of ships like the Porpoise/Orca/Rorqual to mount a reasonable degree of self defence.

Something you are decidedly lacking in your suggestion.

How can you say that? I didn't go into a lot of detail, but I gave them enough slots to fit plenty of defense. How much is a matter of their powergrid and CPU.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2016-12-23 06:29:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

How can you say that? I didn't go into a lot of detail, but I gave them enough slots to fit plenty of defense. How much is a matter of their powergrid and CPU.

EHP is not defence. Defence involves being able to actually kill/drive the attackers off, i.e. high slots with turret/missile slots & drones. You also gave them a pretty miserable number of slots for a ship of that size.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2016-12-23 06:33:26 UTC
nope still looking for an orca... its this idea that has been shot to death and i know you know this

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-12-23 06:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
EHP is not defence. Defence involves being able to actually kill/drive the attackers off, i.e. high slots with turret/missile slots & drones. You also gave them a pretty miserable number of slots for a ship of that size.

It's not a combat ship. It can fit warp stabs or jammers in addition to defense modules, or it can fit a prop mod. Maybe there will be a MJD it can use. It'll have plenty of options for escaping, but shooting down its attackers will not be an option. At best maybe it can have a drone bay, but most people will just fit ECM drones anyway.



Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
nope still looking for an orca... its this idea that has been shot to death and i know you know this

The idea that the Orca is any sort of light freighter has been shot to death and I know you know this.

old forum post I made about it

edit: let's not forget the ASCII charts

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2016-12-23 07:10:38 UTC
That thread is just full of ppl shooting down the idea

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-12-23 07:11:24 UTC
Wait.... someone told me I was you... man I really need to stop arguing with myself

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2016-12-23 07:12:56 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
That thread is just full of ppl shooting down the idea

Mainly it's you spamming the same 'No change to anything' you currently put into every thread.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#15 - 2016-12-23 08:15:27 UTC
If even i would like something between DST and JF that is more suited for low sec transport of large quantities of stuff... don't need another additional tradicional transport ship.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-12-23 08:53:15 UTC
There IS an awkward spot just outside of DST range that falls WELL short of a freighter that, incidentally, Fortizars fall in. Even the orca struggles to cover this gap. Also would help with some of the awkward space needs brought on by trying to haul fits, fighters, ammo and fuel to a baby citadel of any size.


Are these the solution? Probably not. I would prefer to see some of those slots changed into hull bonuses.

Is there a reasonable argument for industrial revamping and perhaps another class of industrial ship, as a result of the age of the citadel? Yes.

And for the love of all that is good in Eve, the barges need put back into the mixer until CCP decides to stop screwing over miners with absolutely BS fitting. But that's a whole 'nother threadnaught.



+1 to Industrial overhaul/additional industrial class..... -1 to this particular iteration of them. Waaayyyyy too many slots/dependence on fitting all the expanders.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#17 - 2016-12-23 11:01:21 UTC
Orca has a maximum cargo capacity of 140K M3 using the standard hold + the fleet hangar. It can also carry ore and fitted ships in its specialized hangars.

Orca can align and warp with 1 pulse of a MWD - 10 seconds.

There is nothing new about this - people have been using Orca as a mini freighter for years.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#18 - 2016-12-23 13:23:19 UTC
Let me think about for an hour or so.. Hmm..

If freighter had a t2 specialist ship that would have 350.000m³ of cargo, now that would solve a problem that doesn't exist. Let's call them jump-freighter and be done here.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#19 - 2016-12-23 13:25:54 UTC
Has anyone tried fitting a Porpoise for cargo yet?

--Curious Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-12-23 14:09:16 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why aren't these implemented yet?

Because they would be redundant.
Use a DST or an Orca

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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