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Intrusion Mining with Frigates
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-12-22 01:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Throughout EVE's history, frigates have been unpopular for mining due to their low yield, and usually only new players use the frigates while veterans fly barges exclusively. But what if there were a reason for veteran players to mine in frigates?

I present: Intrusion Mining
A style of mining in which you spend time finding a very small but very rich pocket of ore, then you mine it out in a short amount of time and move on to the next one.

There could be little pockets of asteroids that must be scanned down, and they contain too little ore too spread out across the grid to be useful for a barge, but a frigate could mine it easily. These asteroids would yield perhaps +50% or +100% minerals, or even higher, to offset the lower yield of the frigate and the time spent searching for sites. The Venture and Prospect would be the best ships for mining these as they are swift and can fit a probe launcher, but some players may use a procurer or skiff. Retriever/mackinaw/covetor/hulk would be ineffective in these ore pockets.

These ore pockets could be pretty common since they individually have very little total ore.


Important Changes to Existing Ships:
Venture: reduce ore hold a bit
Prospect: reduce mining yield closer to the Venture and reduce ore hold significantly

previous proposal

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iain Cariaba
#2 - 2016-12-22 02:20:07 UTC
What's stopping you from being able to do this with current belts? Cherry pick the +10%s if you're ninja mining.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-12-22 02:29:19 UTC
... as a vet who mines exclusively in prospects i take offence to this

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-12-22 07:29:39 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
What's stopping you from being able to do this with current belts? Cherry pick the +10%s if you're ninja mining.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... as a vet who mines exclusively in prospects i take offence to this



The Prospect mines like a barge, the Venture does not.

I am saying the Prospect shouldn't mine like a barge, and it shouldn't have to. +10% ores will do almost nothing to close the gap spent searching for ore, and they're already abundant in large volumes in the bigger pockets which are abundant enough you can spend a half hour looking for one per 5-10 days spent mining it out. This is barge territory and the only reason the Prospect can play in this league is because it mines like a barge.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2016-12-22 09:05:53 UTC
We have the Prospect and Endurance mining frigates based on the Venture hull. Neither of them work anything like a barge. We also have shattered wormholes with rich deposits for them to harvest and now have the Porpoise so you can even have boosts in the shattered wormholes.

I think this is a well solved problem!
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#6 - 2016-12-22 14:36:56 UTC
Um....

What can be mined by a Venture can be mined by a barge faster.
Use a scout to find the pocket, and warp the barge(s) in and suck it all up.
What time is lost?

The only way you would keep the bigger ships out would be to have a warp-gate excluding barges.

I don't see how this would change the status quo. This might be up the Alpha's alley due to no access to barges, but then Omegas in barges can just strip the pockets out that much faster.

I'm not sold on this.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2016-12-22 14:56:35 UTC
What you're looking for here is ninja-mining in Frig class wormholes. It's extremely profitable for the risk and time involved and can only be realistically done in a frigate class hull.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-12-22 15:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
and they contain too little ore too spread out across the grid to be useful for a barge,

Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
The only way you would keep the bigger ships out would be to have a warp-gate excluding barges.

Did you read the post? I explained how barges will fail to mine these out as fast as a Venture. But I can go into more detail if you don't understand:
Example: you have asteroids each spaced so far apart that the mining ship must travel 25km to get to one more asteroid. Each asteroid has 800m3 of ore inside.
A veteran in a Mackinaw mines 1000m3/minute without boosts. He can mine an asteroid in 48 seconds, but at 165m/s it takes him 2:30 to get to the next asteroid. The mining uptime is 32%.
An alpha clone comes in with a Venture that mines only 200m3/minute without boosts. He can spend 4 minutes mining an asteroid while sitting near it, then just 20 seconds flying the 15km it takes to get in range of the next one. With some preparation, even that time can be reduced, but he's already at 92.3% mining uptime. The Venture pilot still mines less than the Mackinaw pilot, but that's due to skills, and the gap is closed considerably.

Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
I don't see how this would change the status quo. This might be up the Alpha's alley due to no access to barges, but then Omegas in barges can just strip the pockets out that much faster.

They won't, if it's spread out enough. The barge might be able to set bookmarks quickly throughout the anomaly, but it'll still spend close to a minute warping in and out just to get at best 2-3 asteroids before warping out and in again. And if it's in a deadspace pocket, warp tricks won't work at all.




Cade Windstalker wrote:
What you're looking for here is ninja-mining in Frig class wormholes. It's extremely profitable for the risk and time involved and can only be realistically done in a frigate class hull.

I haven't done it myself, but with existing asteroid ore types and mining frigate ore holds, I don't see how that's possible. Are you saying that these anomalies have richer ore types than exist elsewhere?

But even if it's solved for wormhole space, there still aren't mining opportunities like this in K-space.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#9 - 2016-12-22 15:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
and they contain too little ore too spread out across the grid to be useful for a barge,

Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
The only way you would keep the bigger ships out would be to have a warp-gate excluding barges.

Did you read the post? I explained how barges will fail to mine these out as fast as a Venture. But I can go into more detail if you don't understand:
Example: you have asteroids each spaced so far apart that the mining ship must travel 25km to get to one more asteroid. Each asteroid has 800m3 of ore inside.
A veteran in a Mackinaw mines 1000m3/minute without boosts. He can mine an asteroid in 48 seconds, but at 165m/s it takes him 2:30 to get to the next asteroid. The mining uptime is 32%.
An alpha clone comes in with a Venture that mines only 200m3/minute without boosts. He can spend 4 minutes mining an asteroid while sitting near it, then just 20 seconds flying the 15km it takes to get in range of the next one. With some preparation, even that time can be reduced, but he's already at 92.3% mining uptime. The Venture pilot still mines less than the Mackinaw pilot, but that's due to skills, and the gap is closed considerably.

Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
I don't see how this would change the status quo. This might be up the Alpha's alley due to no access to barges, but then Omegas in barges can just strip the pockets out that much faster.

They won't, if it's spread out enough. The barge might be able to set bookmarks quickly throughout the anomaly, but it'll still spend close to a minute warping in and out just to get at best 2-3 asteroids before warping out and in again. And if it's in a deadspace pocket, warp tricks won't work at all.


Unless the group is a Hulk and Porpoise with a scanner and/or a scout. One player could make a living killing these pockets, and at 50-100% more minerals... it might be worth it. Smile
The rocks would definitely need to be spaced so a boosted hulk couldn't touch them all at once.

However, I'm still trying to find the need for such a mechanic such as these sigs anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the idea, but it looks like a solution looking for a problem.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-12-22 15:41:10 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
However, I'm still trying to find the need for such a mechanic such as these sigs anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the idea, but it looks like a solution looking for a problem.

--Gadget

The problem is the old problem of mining-going back to the early days of EVE: the problem of making active mining more profitable than AFK mining. And I've found a solution.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#11 - 2016-12-22 15:58:27 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
However, I'm still trying to find the need for such a mechanic such as these sigs anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the idea, but it looks like a solution looking for a problem.

--Gadget

The problem is the old problem of mining-going back to the early days of EVE: the problem of making active mining more profitable than AFK mining. And I've found a solution.



So your fix of afk mining is to nerf the venture (ore hold) and the prospect (ore hold and yield) and add high yield mini sites? That's not where this post started.

Wonking the hold on the venture and prospect will be a huge kick in the nutz for gassers and gassing operations. I don't think your idea will cure eve of afk mining it will just **** of gassers. Let's be honest - WH players keep getting kicked in the nutz as it is, I don't think screwing gassers is a good next step.

AND FINALLY - here's what you are missing about AFK mining. The premise is that I want to do it AFK. I'm not worried about mini pockets being more profitable. I'm just looking to pull in some AFK income while I'm doing chores around the house. There is NO incentive you can put in the game that will do the laundry and 30 other honey do's on my list so I can sit down full time mine properly. For me AFK mining is something I check on periodically while I'm making my wife happy (cleaning the shower and what not).

You can make at the keyboard mining more profitable than say botting, but you can never make any facet of mining better than AFK mining, because I don't care about profits, I care about getting my wife's list done and I can grab some veld here and there while I'm doing that. DO YOU SEE NOW????
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-12-22 16:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wonking the hold on the venture and prospect will be a huge kick in the nutz for gassers and gassing operations. I don't think your idea will cure eve of afk mining it will just **** of gassers. Let's be honest - WH players keep getting kicked in the nutz as it is, I don't think screwing gassers is a good next step.

It's a fair point, but gas volume is very low so I really don't think they'll be hurt that much by a reduction in their ore holds. I don't want to hurt gas mining, though.



Serendipity Lost wrote:
AND FINALLY - here's what you are missing about AFK mining. The premise is that I want to do it AFK. I'm not worried about mini pockets being more profitable. I'm just looking to pull in some AFK income while I'm doing chores around the house. There is NO incentive you can put in the game that will do the laundry and 30 other honey do's on my list so I can sit down full time mine properly. For me AFK mining is something I check on periodically while I'm making my wife happy (cleaning the shower and what not).

You can make at the keyboard mining more profitable than say botting, but you can never make any facet of mining better than AFK mining, because I don't care about profits, I care about getting my wife's list done and I can grab some veld here and there while I'm doing that. DO YOU SEE NOW????

I haven't missed anything. I'm not suggesting that you stop AFK mining. In my suggestion, intrusion mining would be marginally more profitable than AFK mining--don't let the +100% yield fool you. After counting time spent probing the site and all that warping to drop or get in position as well as the reduced mining output of the frigate, the yields don't wind up being that high after all when compared to AFK mining. I like AFK mining, too. With my proposal, you're free to AFK mine exactly the same as before--though your profits may drop a very tiny amount due to the influx of slightly more minerals from the folks who do choose to mine actively.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-12-22 16:54:30 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
What's stopping you from being able to do this with current belts? Cherry pick the +10%s if you're ninja mining.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... as a vet who mines exclusively in prospects i take offence to this



The Prospect mines like a barge, the Venture does not.




mining in a prospect is nothing like mining in a barge thanks to its higher speed and lower range. the prospect mines just like a venture just a bit faster. not to mention gas sites.... you know those sites that mining frigs do better than any other ship. or shattered frig WH where you can only get frigs in to mine

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#14 - 2016-12-22 17:01:02 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wonking the hold on the venture and prospect will be a huge kick in the nutz for gassers and gassing operations. I don't think your idea will cure eve of afk mining it will just **** of gassers. Let's be honest - WH players keep getting kicked in the nutz as it is, I don't think screwing gassers is a good next step.

It's a fair point, but gas volume is very low so I really don't think they'll be hurt that much by a reduction in their ore holds. I don't want to hurt gas mining, though.



Serendipity Lost wrote:
AND FINALLY - here's what you are missing about AFK mining. The premise is that I want to do it AFK. I'm not worried about mini pockets being more profitable. I'm just looking to pull in some AFK income while I'm doing chores around the house. There is NO incentive you can put in the game that will do the laundry and 30 other honey do's on my list so I can sit down full time mine properly. For me AFK mining is something I check on periodically while I'm making my wife happy (cleaning the shower and what not).

You can make at the keyboard mining more profitable than say botting, but you can never make any facet of mining better than AFK mining, because I don't care about profits, I care about getting my wife's list done and I can grab some veld here and there while I'm doing that. DO YOU SEE NOW????

I haven't missed anything. I'm not suggesting that you stop AFK mining. In my suggestion, intrusion mining would be marginally more profitable than AFK mining--don't let the +100% yield fool you. After counting time spent probing the site and all that warping to drop or get in position as well as the reduced mining output of the frigate, the yields don't wind up being that high after all when compared to AFK mining. I like AFK mining, too. With my proposal, you're free to AFK mine exactly the same as before--though your profits may drop a very tiny amount due to the influx of slightly more minerals from the folks who do choose to mine actively.



What is the gas volume for c320 and c540? How can you consider this low? You just said this would take care of the problem in a previous post, now you're saying not to worry, afk mining will be impacted by a 'very tiny amount'. Which is it?

At this poiht I have to ask - Have you ever used a venture or a prospect? Have you ever gassed? This is getting whackier by the minute.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#15 - 2016-12-22 17:02:24 UTC
Can an alpha clone use the venture and/or prospect?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2016-12-22 17:11:30 UTC
it can use the venture

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#17 - 2016-12-22 17:26:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Throughout EVE's history, frigates have been unpopular for mining...


That's the first time I am hearing this. Seriously, the Venture was a success story since the announcement and have you even tried the Prospect or the Endurance?

I don't say this often but I don't wanna miss my Endurance, the best ice mining boat in New Eden. I am indifferent about the Prospect and Endurance about deep core mining or ore mining.

I lean more to the Endurance because of the bigger ore bay, the drone bay, the swiss-army-knife-I-can-do-everything-and-probe-and-OMG-solo-BBQ-drones-mining and murder boat.

I mean what, that boat is a miners wet dream come true and she has the proper slot layout for a shield tank and a cloak that doesn't slow her down.

By the time someone warps to your belt or anomaly or ice belt, you uncloak at 3000km away and say bye.


Mining frigates are awesome.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#18 - 2016-12-22 17:58:58 UTC
elitatwo wrote:



Mining frigates are awesome.


So was my mining Navitas...
At least I thought it was at the time. Cool

--Reminiscing Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#19 - 2016-12-22 19:36:11 UTC
You just described ninja gas mining
Cade Windstalker
#20 - 2016-12-22 20:00:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
What you're looking for here is ninja-mining in Frig class wormholes. It's extremely profitable for the risk and time involved and can only be realistically done in a frigate class hull.

I haven't done it myself, but with existing asteroid ore types and mining frigate ore holds, I don't see how that's possible. Are you saying that these anomalies have richer ore types than exist elsewhere?

But even if it's solved for wormhole space, there still aren't mining opportunities like this in K-space.


Nope, I'm saying that for the risk (a relatively cheap ship in a wormhole many other ships can't even enter) the reward is quite high.

If you're looking for a better reward out of a T1 Frigate than you can get out of a much large ship that's more expensive, more vulnerable, and mines more... I'd say pull the other one, it's got bells on. That's just not how risk/reward works in Eve.
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