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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8161 - 2016-12-17 02:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Tempo
Your suggestions sound like nifty effects for abnormalities in wormhole space.

The sector of space that is actually irredeemably broken.

==========

Null sec is a bit broken from an alpha clone perspective too. More than 5000 individual pilots were involved in system for that 500 billion+ kill event. 290 of the pilots were alpha clones.

Wormhole space in particular, and to some extent nullsec, are not accessible enough to encompass fundamental changes in CCP development.

Afk cloaky camping is a detrimental part of this picture. So has to end (because content in addition to why is afk anything still a thing).

But as I have mentioned many times now: Local light (aka observation arrays) can play an important part in invigorating wormhole space. By giving players rudimentary access to real time information is certain parts of wormhole space.

It is not anything for nullsec. Unless as a supplement to local (giving more and better real time information over multiple systems to suplement, improve, and replace alliance intelligence networks).

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8162 - 2016-12-17 13:24:53 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Tempo
Your suggestions sound like nifty effects for abnormalities in wormhole space.

The sector of space that is actually irredeemably broken.

==========

Null sec is a bit broken from an alpha clone perspective too. More than 5000 individual pilots were involved in system for that 500 billion+ kill event. 290 of the pilots were alpha clones.

Wormhole space in particular, and to some extent nullsec, are not accessible enough to encompass fundamental changes in CCP development.

Afk cloaky camping is a detrimental part of this picture. So has to end (because content in addition to why is afk anything still a thing).

But as I have mentioned many times now: Local light (aka observation arrays) can play an important part in invigorating wormhole space. By giving players rudimentary access to real time information is certain parts of wormhole space.

It is not anything for nullsec. Unless as a supplement to local (giving more and better real time information over multiple systems to suplement, improve, and replace alliance intelligence networks).

So since nobody listened to your nonsense when you were talking about nulllsec, you decided to talk nonsense about a space that you don't live in, you don't understand and most of all, is already in a decent place. CCP themselves have said that they are happy with w-space. As someone who lived there, I agree with them. Sure, there are some issues, but nothing totally gamebreaking. Also, nobody living in w-space complains about cloaks.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8163 - 2016-12-17 16:48:55 UTC
You are talking to the hand, bro.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8164 - 2016-12-17 17:27:57 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
You are talking to the hand, bro.


So you really do belong in y kindergarten with the other 5 year old kids. Good to know.

Wormholer for life.
Xcom
US Space Force
Black Rose.
#8165 - 2016-12-18 14:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Wander Prian wrote:
Also, nobody living in w-space complains about cloaks.

This is not true as you probably only know what the people closest to you think about cloaking. You can't be sure unless you have done a survey.

I honestly enjoyed my time in w-space and it was perfect the way it is. Things that I did actually enjoy was the different mechanics compared to null regarding the locking down system by controlling the entry points, high risk vs reward and the need to use probes to get around. But I can't say the same thing about the cloaks. There was always that glooming annoying feeling that someone is watching you and in a few rare instances there actually was. Getting jumped without a moments notice from a cloaked ship wasn't very welcoming when you were trying to mine in a paper thin ship. Given we fended the cloaked ship away before we got into warp was just luck as his mates logged into system and were on there way to our mining op.

I know it may sound like a good idea forcing people to always stay vigilant and always bring friends. But there are instances in w-space where smaller mining ops were put into gear just to kill time where we didn't have a massive defence fleet in place. In those instances it would be actually meaningful if we could get some form of warning that we were being watched so as to give some chance to get away. Even if that window was small and in favour of aggressors. Or even if it was meant for us to die because the aggressors got a jump on us we should at least have gotten some form of chance to get into pvp ships to fend off the attack. But just as we were jumped and attacked the cloaker got overwhelmed by drones, just warped to safespot cloaked and stayed there till his aggression timer ran out and logged off while we were desperately trying to get to him. We basically got lucky and should have died, which is what happened a few days later when the same stupid tactic got us killed.

I know that w-space shouldn't change but this cloaking nonsense needs to change. It makes it cheep and gimmicky because of how easy it is controlling the outcome from just one side of the attack. It might gimp one ship because of fitting restrictions but a single point is enough to prevent ships from warping. One point and a tank enough to hold people in place till more ships land on grid. Your also safe up to that point till you decide to release cloak and engage giving you every bit of time to scout and prepare for the engagement.

“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.” - Sun Tzu
Scouting without penalty really tips the battle on the aggressors favour, if you come to said system and want a fight then you should also be prepared to get a fight you can't win.

Edit: I have to point out that it was ok for us to get killed because we got jumped. What wasn't ok was how the cloak helped him get away with staying out of combat and go to sleep mode avoiding combat at his leisure. The cloak basically made it impossible to get him killed after being overwhelmed. Gave perfect scouting intel making an unfair advantage to know when its clear to engage and when not to as we never got jumped when enough of us were logged in. Made him able to get a jump on us without any warning before decloaking at point blank range and worst of all abuse cloak to avoid aggro timers in perfect safety.

All avoided if some form of ability to hunt the cloaky was put in place making it impossible to stay cloaked and scout for days gathering intel on activity levels. We knew he was in system because it was back in the watch list days and from time to time probes showed up to scan down our sights knowing it wasn't our probes when he was logged in.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8166 - 2016-12-19 02:47:14 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Also, nobody living in w-space complains about cloaks.

This is not true as you probably only know what the people closest to you think about cloaking. You can't be sure unless you have done a survey.

I honestly enjoyed my time in w-space and it was perfect the way it is. Things that I did actually enjoy was the different mechanics compared to null regarding the locking down system by controlling the entry points, high risk vs reward and the need to use probes to get around. But I can't say the same thing about the cloaks. There was always that glooming annoying feeling that someone is watching you and in a few rare instances there actually was. Getting jumped without a moments notice from a cloaked ship wasn't very welcoming when you were trying to mine in a paper thin ship. Given we fended the cloaked ship away before we got into warp was just luck as his mates logged into system and were on there way to our mining op.

I know it may sound like a good idea forcing people to always stay vigilant and always bring friends. But there are instances in w-space where smaller mining ops were put into gear just to kill time where we didn't have a massive defence fleet in place. In those instances it would be actually meaningful if we could get some form of warning that we were being watched so as to give some chance to get away. Even if that window was small and in favour of aggressors. Or even if it was meant for us to die because the aggressors got a jump on us we should at least have gotten some form of chance to get into pvp ships to fend off the attack. But just as we were jumped and attacked the cloaker got overwhelmed by drones, just warped to safespot cloaked and stayed there till his aggression timer ran out and logged off while we were desperately trying to get to him. We basically got lucky and should have died, which is what happened a few days later when the same stupid tactic got us killed.

I know that w-space shouldn't change but this cloaking nonsense needs to change. It makes it cheep and gimmicky because of how easy it is controlling the outcome from just one side of the attack. It might gimp one ship because of fitting restrictions but a single point is enough to prevent ships from warping. One point and a tank enough to hold people in place till more ships land on grid. Your also safe up to that point till you decide to release cloak and engage giving you every bit of time to scout and prepare for the engagement.

“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.” - Sun Tzu
Scouting without penalty really tips the battle on the aggressors favour, if you come to said system and want a fight then you should also be prepared to get a fight you can't win.

Edit: I have to point out that it was ok for us to get killed because we got jumped. What wasn't ok was how the cloak helped him get away with staying out of combat and go to sleep mode avoiding combat at his leisure. The cloak basically made it impossible to get him killed after being overwhelmed. Gave perfect scouting intel making an unfair advantage to know when its clear to engage and when not to as we never got jumped when enough of us were logged in. Made him able to get a jump on us without any warning before decloaking at point blank range and worst of all abuse cloak to avoid aggro timers in perfect safety.

All avoided if some form of ability to hunt the cloaky was put in place making it impossible to stay cloaked and scout for days gathering intel on activity levels. We knew he was in system because it was back in the watch list days and from time to time probes showed up to scan down our sights knowing it wasn't our probes when he was logged in.



Here's the thing: I've lived in w-space for over 6 years. So far I have not heard a single person complain about cloaks. Zero, zip, nada.

In that example of yours, you can have probe-scanner open to see if new sigs pop up, scout on the wormhole to see/hear if someone jumps in, D-scan, etc. The only one that you cannot see coming is someone who is already in the system when you go in.

Yes, the point of cloaks is to be able to choose the moment of engagement. That is why the module is in the game. To make you have uncertainty in the game, so you cannot just math out all the chances of you getting killed or not.

I like the fact that there is uncertainty in w-space. I think that it's missing from nullsec, making it more stagnant and risk-averse.

Wormholer for life.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8167 - 2016-12-19 05:28:39 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
You are talking to the hand, bro.


And you are clearly reading his posts....Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Xcom
US Space Force
Black Rose.
#8168 - 2016-12-19 10:38:48 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Also, nobody living in w-space complains about cloaks.

This is not true as you probably only know what the people closest to you think about cloaking. You can't be sure unless you have done a survey.

I honestly enjoyed my time in w-space and it was perfect the way it is. Things that I did actually enjoy was the different mechanics compared to null regarding the locking down system by controlling the entry points, high risk vs reward and the need to use probes to get around. But I can't say the same thing about the cloaks. There was always that glooming annoying feeling that someone is watching you and in a few rare instances there actually was. Getting jumped without a moments notice from a cloaked ship wasn't very welcoming when you were trying to mine in a paper thin ship. Given we fended the cloaked ship away before we got into warp was just luck as his mates logged into system and were on there way to our mining op.

I know it may sound like a good idea forcing people to always stay vigilant and always bring friends. But there are instances in w-space where smaller mining ops were put into gear just to kill time where we didn't have a massive defence fleet in place. In those instances it would be actually meaningful if we could get some form of warning that we were being watched so as to give some chance to get away. Even if that window was small and in favour of aggressors. Or even if it was meant for us to die because the aggressors got a jump on us we should at least have gotten some form of chance to get into pvp ships to fend off the attack. But just as we were jumped and attacked the cloaker got overwhelmed by drones, just warped to safespot cloaked and stayed there till his aggression timer ran out and logged off while we were desperately trying to get to him. We basically got lucky and should have died, which is what happened a few days later when the same stupid tactic got us killed.

I know that w-space shouldn't change but this cloaking nonsense needs to change. It makes it cheep and gimmicky because of how easy it is controlling the outcome from just one side of the attack. It might gimp one ship because of fitting restrictions but a single point is enough to prevent ships from warping. One point and a tank enough to hold people in place till more ships land on grid. Your also safe up to that point till you decide to release cloak and engage giving you every bit of time to scout and prepare for the engagement.

“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.” - Sun Tzu
Scouting without penalty really tips the battle on the aggressors favour, if you come to said system and want a fight then you should also be prepared to get a fight you can't win.

Edit: I have to point out that it was ok for us to get killed because we got jumped. What wasn't ok was how the cloak helped him get away with staying out of combat and go to sleep mode avoiding combat at his leisure. The cloak basically made it impossible to get him killed after being overwhelmed. Gave perfect scouting intel making an unfair advantage to know when its clear to engage and when not to as we never got jumped when enough of us were logged in. Made him able to get a jump on us without any warning before decloaking at point blank range and worst of all abuse cloak to avoid aggro timers in perfect safety.

All avoided if some form of ability to hunt the cloaky was put in place making it impossible to stay cloaked and scout for days gathering intel on activity levels. We knew he was in system because it was back in the watch list days and from time to time probes showed up to scan down our sights knowing it wasn't our probes when he was logged in.



Here's the thing: I've lived in w-space for over 6 years. So far I have not heard a single person complain about cloaks. Zero, zip, nada.

In that example of yours, you can have probe-scanner open to see if new sigs pop up, scout on the wormhole to see/hear if someone jumps in, D-scan, etc. The only one that you cannot see coming is someone who is already in the system when you go in.

Yes, the point of cloaks is to be able to choose the moment of engagement. That is why the module is in the game. To make you have uncertainty in the game, so you cannot just math out all the chances of you getting killed or not.

I like the fact that there is uncertainty in w-space. I think that it's missing from nullsec, making it more stagnant and risk-averse.

You could be living in nullsec for the rest of your life, ignorant and never hear about cloaky complaints. And from what I read your perfectly fine with creating uncertainty for anyone who gets hunted down by cloakers while forgeting the fact that cloaks don't have any uncertainty.

Cloaks don't bring any constructive uncertainty, just gimmicky pvp with really crap camping tactics and broken pvp avoidance. Nothing about them does anyone any good other then carebears who don't have the balls to pvp in something that might get them killed.

Choose the moment of engagement my ass. Its carebear mode pvp at its finest and not even having the balls to remove the camping aspect (AFK cloaking) just shows how carebear anyone who defends this mechanic is.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8169 - 2016-12-19 10:42:44 UTC
Xcom wrote:

You could be living in nullsec for the rest of your life, ignorant and never hear about cloaky complaints. And from what I read your perfectly fine with creating uncertainty for anyone who gets hunted down by cloakers while forgeting the fact that cloaks don't have any uncertainty.

Cloaks don't bring any constructive uncertainty, just gimmicky pvp with really crap camping tactics and broken pvp avoidance. Nothing about them does anyone any good other then carebears who don't have the balls to pvp in something that might get them killed.

Choose the moment of engagement my ass. Its carebear mode pvp at its finest and not even having the balls to remove the camping aspect (AFK cloaking) just shows how carebear anyone who defends this mechanic is.


Cloaks are the very essence of uncertainty unless you do something proactive.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8170 - 2016-12-19 11:32:14 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Also, nobody living in w-space complains about cloaks.

This is not true as you probably only know what the people closest to you think about cloaking. You can't be sure unless you have done a survey.

I honestly enjoyed my time in w-space and it was perfect the way it is. Things that I did actually enjoy was the different mechanics compared to null regarding the locking down system by controlling the entry points, high risk vs reward and the need to use probes to get around. But I can't say the same thing about the cloaks. There was always that glooming annoying feeling that someone is watching you and in a few rare instances there actually was. Getting jumped without a moments notice from a cloaked ship wasn't very welcoming when you were trying to mine in a paper thin ship. Given we fended the cloaked ship away before we got into warp was just luck as his mates logged into system and were on there way to our mining op.

I know it may sound like a good idea forcing people to always stay vigilant and always bring friends. But there are instances in w-space where smaller mining ops were put into gear just to kill time where we didn't have a massive defence fleet in place. In those instances it would be actually meaningful if we could get some form of warning that we were being watched so as to give some chance to get away. Even if that window was small and in favour of aggressors. Or even if it was meant for us to die because the aggressors got a jump on us we should at least have gotten some form of chance to get into pvp ships to fend off the attack. But just as we were jumped and attacked the cloaker got overwhelmed by drones, just warped to safespot cloaked and stayed there till his aggression timer ran out and logged off while we were desperately trying to get to him. We basically got lucky and should have died, which is what happened a few days later when the same stupid tactic got us killed.

I know that w-space shouldn't change but this cloaking nonsense needs to change. It makes it cheep and gimmicky because of how easy it is controlling the outcome from just one side of the attack. It might gimp one ship because of fitting restrictions but a single point is enough to prevent ships from warping. One point and a tank enough to hold people in place till more ships land on grid. Your also safe up to that point till you decide to release cloak and engage giving you every bit of time to scout and prepare for the engagement.

“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.” - Sun Tzu
Scouting without penalty really tips the battle on the aggressors favour, if you come to said system and want a fight then you should also be prepared to get a fight you can't win.

Edit: I have to point out that it was ok for us to get killed because we got jumped. What wasn't ok was how the cloak helped him get away with staying out of combat and go to sleep mode avoiding combat at his leisure. The cloak basically made it impossible to get him killed after being overwhelmed. Gave perfect scouting intel making an unfair advantage to know when its clear to engage and when not to as we never got jumped when enough of us were logged in. Made him able to get a jump on us without any warning before decloaking at point blank range and worst of all abuse cloak to avoid aggro timers in perfect safety.

All avoided if some form of ability to hunt the cloaky was put in place making it impossible to stay cloaked and scout for days gathering intel on activity levels. We knew he was in system because it was back in the watch list days and from time to time probes showed up to scan down our sights knowing it wasn't our probes when he was logged in.



Here's the thing: I've lived in w-space for over 6 years. So far I have not heard a single person complain about cloaks. Zero, zip, nada.

In that example of yours, you can have probe-scanner open to see if new sigs pop up, scout on the wormhole to see/hear if someone jumps in, D-scan, etc. The only one that you cannot see coming is someone who is already in the system when you go in.

Yes, the point of cloaks is to be able to choose the moment of engagement. That is why the module is in the game. To make you have uncertainty in the game, so you cannot just math out all the chances of you getting killed or not.

I like the fact that there is uncertainty in w-space. I think that it's missing from nullsec, making it more stagnant and risk-averse.

You could be living in nullsec for the rest of your life, ignorant and never hear about cloaky complaints. And from what I read your perfectly fine with creating uncertainty for anyone who gets hunted down by cloakers while forgeting the fact that cloaks don't have any uncertainty.

Cloaks don't bring any constructive uncertainty, just gimmicky pvp with really crap camping tactics and broken pvp avoidance. Nothing about them does anyone any good other then carebears who don't have the balls to pvp in something that might get them killed.

Choose the moment of engagement my ass. Its carebear mode pvp at its finest and not even having the balls to remove the camping aspect (AFK cloaking) just shows how carebear anyone who defends this mechanic is.


Over the years I've been in small corps, large corps, even done some solo-hunting in W-space when I was between corps. I've been in a leadership-position of one corp, a line-member in others. I've talked with a few CSM's and some CCP-fold as well. in zero occations have I heard someone complain about the cloak.

Especially in W-space, where local doesn't give you away, cloaks absolutely bring uncertainty to your gameplay, when you cannot be completely sure if you are alone. You just assume you aren't and do whatever you do with as much security as you see fit.

Wormholer for life.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8171 - 2016-12-19 16:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Jerghul wrote:
You are talking to the hand, bro.


Quoting to confirm you don't actually have people blocked. Your trolling is bad and you should feel bad.

This is almost as bad as when you harassed ISD by reporting everyone who disagreed with you
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8172 - 2016-12-19 17:35:50 UTC
Pfft

The feeling that you're always being watched is the best part of wh space. Or the feeling that whilst you think you are preying on them, they could actually be preying on you.

All this time you were complaining he could choose his engagements because of his cloak. Where were your cloakers? Why didn't you use the EXACT same tactic to make him doubt when its safe to ambush you or not? Every time he attacked he didn't know you didn't have a gang cloaked and watching over you. And you only have to kill him once and hes out of your hole, probably for good.

Not buying your self-pitying.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xcom
US Space Force
Black Rose.
#8173 - 2016-12-20 02:52:27 UTC
Ya cause feeding the troll camping your system will make him go away, nice try. I know your blind but I did point out it was during the over watch days. He had us all in his over watch list and knew we were less active in the US tz. What ended up happening was that we basically deprived him of content by never running mining sights and he got board and left. If we were stupid enough to leave ambushes and gotten him killed he would just use one of the other characters logged out in the system and gotten back in to camp us for far longer.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8174 - 2016-12-20 03:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
Xcom wrote:
Ya cause feeding the troll camping your system will make him go away, nice try. I know your blind but I did point out it was during the over watch days. He had us all in his over watch list and knew we were less active in the US tz. What ended up happening was that we basically deprived him of content by never running mining sights and he got board and left. If we were stupid enough to leave ambushes and gotten him killed he would just use one of the other characters logged out in the system and gotten back in to camp us for far longer.


Well thank god the watchlist was removed then right? No more easy intel of who is online and who is not. Now he actually has to use his eyes, which means he has to leave his safespots

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8175 - 2016-12-20 05:49:03 UTC
Daichi
Why is AFK anything still a thing? The only selfpity I see are from people afraid their afk cloaky camp buff is going away.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8176 - 2016-12-20 06:09:53 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Daichi
Why is AFK anything still a thing? The only selfpity I see are from people afraid their afk cloaky camp buff is going away.


Because local is still a thing...but hopefully not for much longer.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8177 - 2016-12-20 12:46:37 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Daichi
Why is AFK anything still a thing? The only selfpity I see are from people afraid their afk cloaky camp buff is going away.


Because local is still a thing.

I don't afk cloak. Nor do i want afk cloaking to continue like it is. Pretty sure its been said hundreds of times by a lot of people. Both local AND cloaks need to change.

The main reason this thread is so long is because null bears want it both ways and we're saying 'Nope. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.'

@xcom.
Log off traps were a away around watchlists as well.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8178 - 2016-12-20 13:06:18 UTC
Your issues with local was resolved with the introduction of wormhole space.

Play there if you don't like local. Its a niche environment that most everyone hates (among the reasons for the hatred is due to lack of local), but you should occassionally be able to find someone there.

Empire gates have Empire local.

End of story

Afkarebearing (killing things in absolute safety is the trademark of the true carebear) has to end as soon as possible.

CCP is of course aware of this.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8179 - 2016-12-20 15:23:07 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Your issues with local was resolved with the introduction of wormhole space.

Play there if you don't like local. Its a niche environment that most everyone hates (among the reasons for the hatred is due to lack of local), but you should occassionally be able to find someone there.

Empire gates have Empire local.

End of story

Afkarebearing (killing things in absolute safety is the trademark of the true carebear) has to end as soon as possible.

CCP is of course aware of this.


Stay on topic, this is about AFK cloaking, that's not an issue in WH space. Removing local in null solves the AFK cloaking "issue"
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8180 - 2016-12-20 15:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jerghul wrote:
Your issues with local was resolved with the introduction of wormhole space.

Play there if you don't like local. Its a niche environment that most everyone hates (among the reasons for the hatred is due to lack of local), but you should occassionally be able to find someone there.

Empire gates have Empire local.

End of story

Afkarebearing (killing things in absolute safety is the trademark of the true carebear) has to end as soon as possible.

CCP is of course aware of this.


WH space has no relationship at all with null sec, but why do WH players keep coming into this thread and keep going on about removing local, simple, they want easy kills, they hate that local identifies them as being in system because it is not the same as WH space and their prey sees them coming, so they have to switch to different tactics and strategies, which is hard for them, some do and are good at it, others just whine.

Anyone who identifies themselves as a WH player and goes off on local is a roaring carebear and should be ashamed of themselves, local exists, deal with it or stay in WH space.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp