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The Mutuality of Freighter Ganking

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2016-12-18 20:04:27 UTC
Most of us have seen them, those threads that come along every now and then and complain about the lack of risk those who gank freighters face. And on top of that there is all that ISK they make. Goons appear to have a cutoff of 6 billion in cargo: then gank.

Yes, at first glance it looks like there is an imbalance here. People understand the game mechanics are using them to make substantial amounts of ISK with little actual risk.

I believe the proper response is to point out that freighter ganking is where people are taking advantage of arbitrage opportunities on risk. We know what it means to do this on the market with prices, you see something for a low price in one market and a high price in another, you buy low and move the item to sell high. Or you might put up a buy order at a low price with the intent to sell at a higher price and thereby take advantage of people’s impatience when buying and selling items. Nobody seems to have a problem with this.

But when we switch over to risk, for some reason most people just can’t think through the process the same way. What is almost always ignored is the freighter pilot’s actions to take on very large amounts of risk. In fact, the opponents of freighter ganking not only appear to ignore this aspect of the freighter pilot’s choice, they argue as if they want to protect such behavior.

My argument has been, that when somebody takes on large amounts of risk, it is fine that somebody else comes along and takes advantage of it. That this is perfectly in line with the nature of the game. In fact, it is the very idea that underlies one of the primary rules of the game: do not fly anything you cannot afford to lose….do not take on excessive risk.

Why suddenly this does not apply to freighters with 7.8 billion ISK worth of cargo is never explained by those opposed to freighter ganking. In every other instance where this applies there is no similar opposition. If you put modules on your mission BS that put its ISK value over 5 billion and you get ganked...nobody defends the imprudent mission pilot for foolishly put such valuable modules on his BS. When an imprudent player puts 10x PLEX into the cargo hold of his shuttle and is blown up, nobody defends this imprudent player who foolishly put such massive value into a squishy target. But put those same 10x PLEX in an ungainly freighter and the opponents of ganking come out of the woodwork and make the argument that there should be more risk for the gankers.

In other words, when it comes to freighter ganking “it takes two to tango”. On the one side we have to have a player taking on excessive amounts of risk and on the other side we have the players who understand how to take advantage of that risk. Yes, gankers face low risk...but they only exist because another player took on high risk. Or to put it differently: freighter ganking is very much an example of the sandbox game in action. One player is taking on too much risk and there are those who take advantage of it. This is totally fine everywhere else in the game...but apparently not HS and not if you are in a freighter. Blind jump your super to a cyno beacon and get dropped...sucks to be you. But undock with 6 billion ISK in your freighter and blind jump into Uedama (a well known gank system) and suddenly it is killing the game. No! That IS the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-12-18 20:04:34 UTC
Yes, there are instances where freighter ganking takes place with an empty freighter. This does not invalidate my point above, IMO. The reason is that another aspect of this game has been, if I am willing to accept the consequences of shooting you in game, then I can shoot you. In NS, LS, and yes even HS. That a group of players get together to gank an empty freighter should also be allowed. Additionally, if one were to actually do something shocking like go to zkillboard and look at freighters killed in HS and remove freighters killed legally, killed with a cargo value above 2x the cost of the ships used to kill the freighter, and keep what is left--uneconomic ganks. One will see that while this does happen it is not that common. The bulk of freighters are ganked because they are carrying too much cargo. Stop that and freighter ganking will largely cease to exist. In other words, the ubiquity of freighter ganks is due to the ubiquity of foolish and imprudent freighter pilots.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#3 - 2016-12-18 20:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Yourmoney Mywallet
Doomheim
#4 - 2016-12-18 20:30:22 UTC
Freighter ganking is git. Who knew.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-12-18 20:48:03 UTC
just start hauling trillion of isk in freighters and call the militia to save you.
gg izi
Salvos Rhoska
#6 - 2016-12-18 21:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
This is nonsense.
Fit properly, prepare suitable time, route, and fly with support.
Its not a sure thing, but you can take precautions.

What really offends me, is Jump Freighters.
I hate them. I cannot abide their existence.
Instead of risking transit with precautions as you do, they simply jump over it.

I HATE jump freighters.

You make a valid point that non-jump freighters are a target due to their vulnerabilities.
But the real imbalance, is in Jump Freighters completely bypassing risk, and leaving you as a gate transiting freighter as the remaining extant target.

Jump freighters are a cancer to bypass PvP.
They shouldn't exist.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#7 - 2016-12-18 21:10:05 UTC
Why there is any sympathy or at all for freighter pilots that make a mistake and overload their hauler out of ignorance/greed/lazyness is a bit of a mystery for me. I get that the friends of the pilot might want to step in and try to do something, but this phenomenon of 'white-knighting' for strangers is a bit baffling. In almost every other area of Eve players congratulate each other on calling their opponents on their mistakes and capitalizing on them, except for some reason, freighter pilots.

Content is content however, and if players want to organize and tear themselves away from their mindless ISK-grinding to mess with gankers that can only be a good thing. Hopefully, the desire to beat the gankers is the place this is coming from, and it is this competetive impulse that motivates them rather than some delusion that they are "the hero" when they are really just trying to shelter bad players from the consequences of their bad play.

In any case though stuff like this is what makes Eve a great game. The myriad of different motivations and instrinsic monkey-brain behaviours we all have manifest in unpredictable emergent game play. It's why we all need to be vulnerable to each other, and why CCP should stop with buffing safety everywhere in this game which most of the player base continually whine for, but all it does is prevent interesting things like this from happening and slowly suffocate the game.
Davian Thule Pirkibo
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2016-12-18 21:23:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
This is nonsense.
Fit properly, prepare suitable time, route, and fly with support.
Its not a sure thing, but you can take precautions.

What really offends me, is Jump Freighters.
I hate them. I cannot abide their existence.
Instead of risking transit with precautions as you do, they simply jump over it.

I HATE jump freighters.

You make a valid point that non-jump freighters are a target due to their vulnerabilities.
But the real imbalance, is in Jump Freighters completely bypassing risk, and leaving you as a gate transiting freighter as the remaining extant target.

Jump freighters are a cancer to bypass PvP.
They shouldn't exist.


Jfs are one of the largest targets in null, they must transit from low into high, they undergo the same risks as normal freighters, secondly and this is the reason why their light years was not severely nerfed when pheobe was released, killing off JFS will kill off entire areas of nullsec, or force people into massive blue blobs, want to know why the drone lands didnt collapse after pheobe and aegis sov was released? Because the only viable way to get goods into the drone lands is in etherium reach, anyone who wants to live beyond there must be blue to whoever owns etheriam reach, forcing a massive blue blob, Are you sure, now given this knowledge that you want that for the rest of nullsec?
2Sonas1Cup
#9 - 2016-12-18 21:26:46 UTC
I was gonna skip reading and just post (or not) what first comes to my mind about you, but I read a little bit and it got me to read it all through until the end.

Was well written nontheless.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#10 - 2016-12-18 21:38:12 UTC
OK...

So why post this, I guess is my question? I haven't heard any rumors about CCP making it illegal. Even if CCP doubled the HP of freighters (which again, no one at CCP has mentioned doing to my knowledge) it wouldn't slow down the goons or CODE. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with anything you posted, but freighter ganking happens. In the last week as of this post the following freighters were killed in HighSec:

Charon: 13
Providence: 6
Obelisk: 6
Fenrir: 7

Bare in mind: This does NOT account for faction or corporation warfare. A lot of these may have died to enemy corps at war with one another.

...so not too terribly common. 4.6 / day get ganked (or otherwise killed from a war or something), half of the time for reasons you stated, half of the time just because the freighter was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Contrast that to the amount of ganking that happens in HS globally over the course of an average day and it's chicken scratch, especially when you look at the average value of the kill. If you were to go to zkillboard and filter by freighters, you'd see that a little over half of the freighter kills were barely above hull value. They aren't making anything half of the time, they are losing a lot. I'll admit, the other half more than makes up for it. That assumes they can get the loot out. I often chase after ganking fleets for the looting opportunity it presents. Looting non-blue wrecks in those situations is a great way to get killed. Me and a buddy tried to loot a Charon the other day. He lost his ship pretty quick, and I only got away because anit-gankers were so busy podding all the ganker capsules. I wonder if a CODE. guy or goon would back me up on that? I've never been part of a freighter gank, but it doesn't look that easy to grab the loot.

tl;dr; it's not that easy to gank freighters in the first place. It's even harder to get the loot.

So the take-aways from this: Ganking freighters is a lot harder than just normal solo ganking, and less profitable on a per-capita/pod/ganker basis. Ganking freighters can be profitable over the long term if you 1) really have your system down, 2) are highly selective, and 3) you are able to get the loot out without anti-gankers or even rando passers by blowing up your looters. You need #1 AND #2 AND #3 to be true to come out on top. I've seen lots of failed freighter ganks (~20%), so #1 isn't true for some of these guys. As over half the freighter ganks being done are only worth the hull, we know #2 isn't true a lot of the time. As for #3, you would have to ask the people doing the ganking, because I'm not sure, but from where I'm sitting it looks like a very difficult problem.

So from my perspective, freighter ganks are a kind of unique and uncommon thing to see. There is risk in doing it... it's not for everyone. It CAN be profitable, but most of the time is not. Nobody at CCP has made any statements I'm aware of that would curtail HS freighter ganking as it is today.

...and so I return to my original question, why the wall of text? Just trying to 'stir the pot?'

Signatures should be used responsibly...

2Sonas1Cup
#11 - 2016-12-18 21:45:43 UTC
Gogela wrote:
OK...

So why post this, I guess is my question? I haven't heard any rumors about CCP making it illegal. Even if CCP doubled the HP of freighters (which again, no one at CCP has mentioned doing to my knowledge) it wouldn't slow down the goons or CODE. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with anything you posted, but freighter ganking happens. In the last week as of this post the following freighters were killed in HighSec:

Charon: 13
Providence: 6
Obelisk: 6
Fenrir: 7

Bare in mind: This does NOT account for faction or corporation warfare. A lot of these may have died to enemy corps at war with one another.

...so not too terribly common. 4.6 / day get ganked (or otherwise killed from a war or something), half of the time for reasons you stated, half of the time just because the freighter was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Contrast that to the amount of ganking that happens in HS globally over the course of an average day and it's chicken scratch, especially when you look at the average value of the kill. If you were to go to zkillboard and filter by freighters, you'd see that a little over half of the freighter kills were barely above hull value. They aren't making anything half of the time, they are losing a lot. I'll admit, the other half more than makes up for it. That assumes they can get the loot out. I often chase after ganking fleets for the looting opportunity it presents. Looting non-blue wrecks in those situations is a great way to get killed. Me and a buddy tried to loot a Charon the other day. He lost his ship pretty quick, and I only got away because anit-gankers were so busy podding all the ganker capsules. I wonder if a CODE. guy or goon would back me up on that? I've never been part of a freighter gank, but it doesn't look that easy to grab the loot.

tl;dr; it's not that easy to gank freighters in the first place. It's even harder to get the loot.

So the take-aways from this: Ganking freighters is a lot harder than just normal solo ganking, and less profitable on a per-capita/pod/ganker basis. Ganking freighters can be profitable over the long term if you 1) really have your system down, 2) are highly selective, and 3) you are able to get the loot out without anti-gankers or even rando passers by blowing up your looters. You need #1 AND #2 AND #3 to be true to come out on top. I've seen lots of failed freighter ganks (~20%), so #1 isn't true for some of these guys. As over half the freighter ganks being done are only worth the hull, we know #2 isn't true a lot of the time. As for #3, you would have to ask the people doing the ganking, because I'm not sure, but from where I'm sitting it looks like a very difficult problem.

So from my perspective, freighter ganks are a kind of unique and uncommon thing to see. There is risk in doing it... it's not for everyone. It CAN be profitable, but most of the time is not. Nobody at CCP has made any statements I'm aware of that would curtail HS freighter ganking as it is today.

...and so I return to my original question, why the wall of text? Just trying to 'stir the pot?'


You overly overestimate the amount of freighters that are needed at any one time in this game.
No not so many, 4.6 a day (full of goods) is a huge amount.
AlexHalstead
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-12-18 21:56:30 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Gogela wrote:
OK...

So why post this, I guess is my question? I haven't heard any rumors about CCP making it illegal. Even if CCP doubled the HP of freighters (which again, no one at CCP has mentioned doing to my knowledge) it wouldn't slow down the goons or CODE. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with anything you posted, but freighter ganking happens. In the last week as of this post the following freighters were killed in HighSec:

Charon: 13
Providence: 6
Obelisk: 6
Fenrir: 7

Bare in mind: This does NOT account for faction or corporation warfare. A lot of these may have died to enemy corps at war with one another.

...so not too terribly common. 4.6 / day get ganked (or otherwise killed from a war or something), half of the time for reasons you stated, half of the time just because the freighter was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Contrast that to the amount of ganking that happens in HS globally over the course of an average day and it's chicken scratch, especially when you look at the average value of the kill. If you were to go to zkillboard and filter by freighters, you'd see that a little over half of the freighter kills were barely above hull value. They aren't making anything half of the time, they are losing a lot. I'll admit, the other half more than makes up for it. That assumes they can get the loot out. I often chase after ganking fleets for the looting opportunity it presents. Looting non-blue wrecks in those situations is a great way to get killed. Me and a buddy tried to loot a Charon the other day. He lost his ship pretty quick, and I only got away because anit-gankers were so busy podding all the ganker capsules. I wonder if a CODE. guy or goon would back me up on that? I've never been part of a freighter gank, but it doesn't look that easy to grab the loot.

tl;dr; it's not that easy to gank freighters in the first place. It's even harder to get the loot.

So the take-aways from this: Ganking freighters is a lot harder than just normal solo ganking, and less profitable on a per-capita/pod/ganker basis. Ganking freighters can be profitable over the long term if you 1) really have your system down, 2) are highly selective, and 3) you are able to get the loot out without anti-gankers or even rando passers by blowing up your looters. You need #1 AND #2 AND #3 to be true to come out on top. I've seen lots of failed freighter ganks (~20%), so #1 isn't true for some of these guys. As over half the freighter ganks being done are only worth the hull, we know #2 isn't true a lot of the time. As for #3, you would have to ask the people doing the ganking, because I'm not sure, but from where I'm sitting it looks like a very difficult problem.

So from my perspective, freighter ganks are a kind of unique and uncommon thing to see. There is risk in doing it... it's not for everyone. It CAN be profitable, but most of the time is not. Nobody at CCP has made any statements I'm aware of that would curtail HS freighter ganking as it is today.

...and so I return to my original question, why the wall of text? Just trying to 'stir the pot?'


You overly overestimate the amount of freighters that are needed at any one time in this game.
No not so many, 4.6 a day (full of goods) is a huge amount.

If you actually read it carefully he said a little over half of the freighters losses on killboard didn't have loot worth more than their hull.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#13 - 2016-12-18 21:58:42 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
...4.6 a day (full of goods) is a huge amount.

Shocked

Remove standings and insurance.

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#14 - 2016-12-18 22:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
You overly overestimate the amount of freighters that are needed at any one time in this game.
No not so many, 4.6 a day (full of goods) is a huge amount.


As I mentioned, that the total number of freighters killed in highsec in an average day, not necessarily ganks.


  • We don't know how many of these were killed by corporations at war with each other. Feel free to do the research. I don't care enough.

  • Looking back over the numbers, more than half were empty freighters: no loot. Another 25% had a total value less than 2x hull cost: very little loot.


I don't think that's a huge number. I would speculate that there is on average 1-2 actual ganks per day and the odds of it being profitable for the gankers is pretty low.

As for "how many freighters are needed in game", just sit out in Jita 4-4 undock, and count the freighters coming in and out every day. The odds of getting ganked in a freighter are really, really, really low.

edited for clarity

Signatures should be used responsibly...

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#15 - 2016-12-18 22:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
2Sonas1Cup wrote:


You overly overestimate the amount of freighters that are needed at any one time in this game.
No not so many, 4.6 a day (full of goods) is a huge amount.



I do 5-6 freighter-sized, though not 100% full, courier contracts per week just for my raw material - nevermind my output. I am not a large producer.

I think it's possible you have no idea what you're talking about.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

HellGate fr
#16 - 2016-12-18 22:15:00 UTC
Freighter ganking is sinful and you should be ashamed. Straight
Sugar Smacks
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-12-18 22:21:53 UTC
I always find it amusing when people defend the fact that so many freighters are ganked completely empty and people go right to "its ok" and "nothing is wrong".

Its a pretty typical reaction that people don't like to look at a problem that directly effects their gameplay.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#18 - 2016-12-18 22:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Teckos Pech wrote:

Why suddenly this does not apply to freighters with 7.8 billion ISK worth of cargo is never explained by those opposed to freighter ganking. In every other instance where this applies there is no similar opposition. If you put modules on your mission BS that put its ISK value over 5 billion and you get ganked...nobody defends the imprudent mission pilot for foolishly put such valuable modules on his BS. When an imprudent player puts 10x PLEX into the cargo hold of his shuttle and is blown up, nobody defends this imprudent player who foolishly put such massive value into a squishy target. But put those same 10x PLEX in an ungainly freighter and the opponents of ganking come out of the woodwork and make the argument that there should be more risk for the gankers.


Thing is you don't "need" billions in modules on your missioning BS - its a risk you accept and have far more options, same with PLEX there is very little need to do it and lots of other options but with freighters often there are a lot less or no other options other than to take that risk - on the flipside there are times when people could have used a BR or whatever and I have no sympathy if they get blown up through imprudence.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#19 - 2016-12-18 22:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Sugar Smacks wrote:
I always find it amusing when people defend the fact that so many freighters are ganked completely empty and people go right to "its ok" and "nothing is wrong".

Its a pretty typical reaction that people don't like to look at a problem that directly effects their gameplay.

I definitely think something is wrong. Absolutely. Look at what I wrote above? "How is freighter ganking even possible" is the real question.

You know what you never see these days in EvE? A freighter being escorted by a BS or two with hull/armor/shield reppers. Nobody does it at all. Not since before jump freighters, when there would be escort fleets with freighters going to null. Since then... nobody at all flies with support. That's what's wrong. ...but then the odds of getting ganked are so very small.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Violet Crumble
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-12-18 22:39:38 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
...
What really offends me, is Jump Freighters.
I hate them. I cannot abide their existence.
Instead of risking transit with precautions as you do, they simply jump over it.

I HATE jump freighters.
...

Jump freighters are a cancer to bypass PvP.
They shouldn't exist.

Roll

https://zkillboard.com/group/902/

Funtime Factory - We put the fun back in funtime

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