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Keepstar Destroyed in M-OEE8 in the Largest Battle in EVE Online

Author
Salvos Rhoska
#21 - 2016-12-16 13:49:39 UTC
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
The problem was not the tidi, which is expected, it the stupid damage cap mechanics which strung the fight out for an unnecessarily long time.


I confess my ignorance.

What are these damage cap mechanics you speak of?
Could you please outline them briefly?
Judaa K'Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-12-16 16:07:30 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
The problem was not the tidi, which is expected, it the stupid damage cap mechanics which strung the fight out for an unnecessarily long time.


I confess my ignorance.

What are these damage cap mechanics you speak of?
Could you please outline them briefly?


Citadels were originally intended to use to entosis mechanic. Players understandably cried. So the damage cap system was used instead. Each tick the citadels only allows a certain amount of damage done to it, all other damage above the cap is reduced to zero. There is therefore no way to speed up the process, meaning 7 hours now is the minimum time it takes for a keepstar to be killed under max tidi.


Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#23 - 2016-12-16 16:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
The problem was not the tidi, which is expected, it the stupid damage cap mechanics which strung the fight out for an unnecessarily long time.


I confess my ignorance.

What are these damage cap mechanics you speak of?
Could you please outline them briefly?


Citadels were originally intended to use to entosis mechanic. Players understandably cried. So the damage cap system was used instead. Each tick the citadels only allows a certain amount of damage done to it, all other damage above the cap is reduced to zero. There is therefore no way to speed up the process, meaning 7 hours now is the minimum time it takes for a keepstar to be killed under max tidi.




so.....tidi is the issue because too many people want a killmail so pile into systems creating tidi (ps the last keepstar took around an hour to destroy)

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Judaa K'Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-12-16 16:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Judaa K'Marr
Lan Wang wrote:
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Judaa K'Marr wrote:
The problem was not the tidi, which is expected, it the stupid damage cap mechanics which strung the fight out for an unnecessarily long time.


I confess my ignorance.

What are these damage cap mechanics you speak of?
Could you please outline them briefly?


Citadels were originally intended to use to entosis mechanic. Players understandably cried. So the damage cap system was used instead. Each tick the citadels only allows a certain amount of damage done to it, all other damage above the cap is reduced to zero. There is therefore no way to speed up the process, meaning 7 hours now is the minimum time it takes for a keepstar to be killed under max tidi.




so.....tidi is the issue because too many people want a killmail so pile into systems creating tidi (ps the last keepstar took around an hour to destroy)


Tidi is not "an issue", let alone "the issue". Many go to tidi fights regularly.

M-O was horrible because of the length of time it took, due to the cap. An uncapped structure bashed by PL and NC supers would be down quickly even in tidi.

Damage caps are fine sure, when there is no tidi. "It works fine so long as circumstance x is present, and circumstance y is absent" is not a good design though, especially when particular circumstances are well known and common to occur in your game.
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#25 - 2016-12-16 19:59:39 UTC
NofriendNoLifeStilPostin wrote:
The awful design of this game keeps making itself apparent, and kool-aid drinkers continue to make excuses instead of recognizing that it is indeed crap gameplay.

no wonder they are trying to sell this sinking ship. Incompetence permeates the highest offices at CCP and the forum dwelling troglodytes are incapable of seeing the game any different than the steaming pile of **** that is served to them.

Post with your main if you want anyone to care.

We aren't going to care anyway, but at least it makes you look like less of a pansy.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#26 - 2016-12-16 20:07:49 UTC
Judaa K'Marr wrote:


It quite funny since damage caps were designed to prevent blobbing,


That's really not accurate.

The design intent of the damage cap is to allow there to actually be a "reasonable" fight length at a wide spread of scales.

Without it, you're left with either designing them to withstand the DPS of "the blob" - at which point, killing them with less-than-a-max-dudes blob becomes a huge chore, even not in TiDi - or allowing them to be killed in a reasonable time by a modest fleet, at which point a huge super blob could just alpha it off the field.

It's kind of silly to look at one huge "server first" clusterfuck that everyone wanted to pile onto and declare the damage cap a failure. In the average case, it's an improvement over grinding POS.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#27 - 2016-12-16 20:12:55 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Judaa K'Marr wrote:


It quite funny since damage caps were designed to prevent blobbing,


That's really not accurate.

The design intent of the damage cap is to allow there to actually be a "reasonable" fight length at a wide spread of scales.

Without it, you're left with either designing them to withstand the DPS of "the blob" - at which point, killing them with less-than-a-max-dudes blob becomes a huge chore, even not in TiDi - or allowing them to be killed in a reasonable time by a modest fleet, at which point a huge super blob could just alpha it off the field.

It's kind of silly to look at one huge "server first" clusterfuck that everyone wanted to pile onto and declare the damage cap a failure. In the average case, it's an improvement over grinding POS.

Yeah, I don't think some of the people in this thread are taking into account what's necessary to allow completely un-capped PvPin a game while simultaneously ensuring that the server doesn't go down and that players don't have to worry about a 5000-man doom fleet destroying hundreds of billions worth of ISK in one volley.

Maybe in another 5 years there will be server tech that allows 5k+ players in one system with no TiDi, but until then can we just be happy with the fact that back in 2004 having 500 ships on grid would have brought the whole cluster down?

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Ravien Darkstarr
New Eden Film Society
#28 - 2016-12-17 01:29:14 UTC
I don't think a lot of people understand exactly what tidi does. It slows down the game time when there are a large number of players in a system. When there's an absurd number, it slows time down to 10% of normal. This means that any action takes roughly 10 times longer. Reloading your missile launchers goes from 10 seconds to 100 seconds. Warping into the fight goes from 30 seconds to 5 minutes. Destroying a structure that takes 30 minutes now takes 5 hours.

EVE is all about the emergent sandbox gameplay of the players. There are several options to dealing with large fights like these:
1: Allow them to happen at normal speed, potentially causing the node to crash or for some player's modules to not activate like they should, resulting in a fight skewed in favor of those who get lucky with the lag. The fight will still take longer than normal to complete due to unresponsive commands.
2: Somehow slow down the time, giving the network and servers more time to process things so that things more or less happen in the right order and the server remains stable, at the expense of the fight taking longer.
3: Lower the cap on the number of players who can enter one system to somewhere under 1,000.

CCP chose the option that puts the most power in the hands of the players. The game lets you gather several thousand players in one place, if we so choose, but we have to face the consequences of tidi in the process. That's just the price you pay for showing up along with 5,000 other people. Nobody forces you to go to these systems.

What is your solution? Cap the size of the fight? Remove tidi so the fight is at the mercy of server and network lag? Remove the damage cap so that a hundred billion isk structure can be destroyed before the defenders can do anything about it?

This boggles my mind.

Casual maker of EVE Online (and other) game videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cYAJAR3TRG4A9MtXfgXIA

Hipqo
Tyde8
#29 - 2016-12-17 15:10:20 UTC
NofriendNoLifeStilPostin wrote:
The awful design of this game keeps making itself apparent, and kool-aid drinkers continue to make excuses instead of recognizing that it is indeed crap gameplay.

no wonder they are trying to sell this sinking ship. Incompetence permeates the highest offices at CCP and the forum dwelling troglodytes are incapable of seeing the game any different than the steaming pile of **** that is served to them.


Can i have your stuff when you biomass on the way out??

A life is best lived, to not step into your grave in a well preserved body. Instead, to slide in side ways, all battered and bruised, screamming, "Holy SH**! What a ride!"

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