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Understanding Passive tank numbers?

Author
Keiral
Cerulean Robotics
#1 - 2016-12-14 22:26:00 UTC
Ok so with the latest expansion the numbers for shield regen on the fitting screeen have changed, from a time (to full recharge) to HP per second.

Before I tried to get the largest amount of hitpoints with the quickest recharge time, now im not so sure what to look for and what mods are best.

For example, my Drake, with 3 field purgers and large xtenders, gets 9000hp and 90hp/s (which works great in lvl3's).

On my Rokh, the same set up gives me 19000hp and 61hp/s....with 3 field xtenders I get 33000hp and 45hp/s

Im not sure what numbers i need to get higher, the HP or the HP/s and should i be going for shield hitpoints or regen?






Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2016-12-14 22:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
It depends on what you want to use the tank for. If you need to be able to tank mission rats indefinitely, then you want to have high shield regeneration (HP/s). If you regenerate more hitpoints than the rats can take away, then you will never die to them, even if you just have 700hp overall.

If you need to be able to take an initial beating with high DPS, say, you warp into a site and the rats do 1000DPS, then you will most likely not be able to match that with passive shield regeneration. So, you will lose HP over time. In that case, you may want to have more overall hitpoints, so you can at least stay there for a while and thin out their ranks until you can actually tank the incoming damage.

In the end, though, with the way how passive shield regeneration and stacking penalty works, you will always have a mix anyway. The shield has a certain number of hitpoints, and these hitpoints regenerate over a certain period of time. So, if you increase the number of hitpoints, you will also increase the number of hitpoints regenerated over time, and therefore HP/s. If you on the other hand shorten the regeneration time, then the same amount of hitpoints will generate, but in less time. Again, HP/s rises. Just slapping on Shield extenders is admittedly less effective in terms of HP/s than adding shield power relays, however since stacking multiple modules that give the same boni (like shield power relays and shield rechargers) makes each one of them less effective, you will end up wanting to do both anyway.

Except for the numbers that are being displayed, the mechanic hasn't changed by the way, so the same modules that worked before still work exactly the same.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-12-14 22:51:07 UTC
Max hp/s only happen at somewhere around 33% shields left, before or after that the number is lower. Total HPs is how much buffer you have. Which one you need to focus more on depends on what you are doing. If you are going to take lots of damage in a short amount of time you want buffer. If you are taking moderate amounts of damage over a long period you want more regen.

How much damage you resist without it even being applied to your HP numbers figures into this as well. Resists are very important.

TL;dr
How you fit your tank depends entirely on what you plan on doing with your ship. The situation that you are flying into and the tactics that you intend to employ will determine how you fit your ship. There are no generic answers in Eve, everything is situational.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2016-12-14 22:51:33 UTC
Keiral wrote:
Ok so with the latest expansion the numbers for shield regen on the fitting screeen have changed, from a time (to full recharge) to HP per second.

Before I tried to get the largest amount of hitpoints with the quickest recharge time, now im not so sure what to look for and what mods are best.

For example, my Drake, with 3 field purgers and large xtenders, gets 9000hp and 90hp/s (which works great in lvl3's).

On my Rokh, the same set up gives me 19000hp and 61hp/s....with 3 field xtenders I get 33000hp and 45hp/s

Im not sure what numbers i need to get higher, the HP or the HP/s and should i be going for shield hitpoints or regen?


Generally if you increase HP is can help increase the passive resharge as the recharge is a % of the HP's

Ok, youre doing something wrong with your drake, this is my pvp fit that is focused on passive shield recharge that gets me about 443 hp/s recharge at 318 DPS

[Drake, PvP Gen 3]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Hobgoblin II x5


Then if you switch out 3 SPR's with 3 BCS's then it drops the shield recharge to 187hp/s and ups the DPS to 462

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

Keiral
Cerulean Robotics
#5 - 2016-12-15 00:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Keiral
Netan MalDoran wrote:


Ok, youre doing something wrong with your drake, this is my pvp fit that is focused on passive shield recharge that gets me about 443 hp/s recharge at 318 DPS

[Drake, PvP Gen 3]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Prototype 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Hobgoblin II x5


Then if you switch out 3 SPR's with 3 BCS's then it drops the shield recharge to 187hp/s and ups the DPS to 462


Ok something is odd here, I just plugged this build into my Drake simulation and only got 188hp/s, even with the power relays...now my shield skills are ok, mosttly 4s and 5s so im wondering where your numbers came from....I only got 395hp/s but adding 3 more Large Extenders

Skills only add so much extra and I cant help but wonder how you got over 400hp/s?

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the help and this build is better than what I had but your numbers are really high and I need to know exaclty how you acheived them?
Seymarr
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#6 - 2016-12-15 00:50:50 UTC
Hard to say where the discrepancy lies for sure, but at a guess:

-Are you measuring raw HP/s, or EHP/s? (EHP, or "Effective Hitpoints", is after resists - for example, if you had 50% resists, your EHP would be double your raw HP. The game reports raw HP/s at peak recharge; EHP/s is what you're usually really concerned about. Given that Drake average resists with one invul will be around 60%, I suspect they may be thinking about EHP/s when you're looking at raw HP/s - that'd about account for the difference.)

-Are you adding in the drones? That kind of differential, in addition to skills, sounds like potentially forgetting to load in the flight of light drones, or not having skills to fly them. Alternately, are you sure you loaded in kinetic (Scourge) missiles? The Drake's damage bonus applies only to kinetic damage.
Keiral
Cerulean Robotics
#7 - 2016-12-15 01:27:58 UTC
Seymarr wrote:
Hard to say where the discrepancy lies for sure, but at a guess:

-Are you measuring raw HP/s, or EHP/s? (EHP, or "Effective Hitpoints", is after resists - for example, if you had 50% resists, your EHP would be double your raw HP. The game reports raw HP/s at peak recharge; EHP/s is what you're usually really concerned about. Given that Drake average resists with one invul will be around 60%, I suspect they may be thinking about EHP/s when you're looking at raw HP/s - that'd about account for the difference.)

-Are you adding in the drones? That kind of differential, in addition to skills, sounds like potentially forgetting to load in the flight of light drones, or not having skills to fly them. Alternately, are you sure you loaded in kinetic (Scourge) missiles? The Drake's damage bonus applies only to kinetic damage.


Yeah I added drones and got my DPS over 300....as to the HP/s and EHP/s...you are probably right, I'm just getting these figures from the in-game simulator, which state HP/s.

Well at least my setup is way improved and I know what kind of numbers I should be aiming for...but it looks like i need to find out more about calculating EHP/s...I'm assuming the ingame simulator doesnt calculate this?
Keiral
Cerulean Robotics
#8 - 2016-12-15 19:12:46 UTC
Ok...last question, how do you calculate your EHP/s?
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2016-12-15 21:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Netan MalDoran
Keiral wrote:
Ok...last question, how do you calculate your EHP/s?


Ah, found the discrepancy in HP/s, EFT shows the EHP/s with the setting set at uniform damage,
In terms of EHP/s, its usually messy so tools like EFT make it easy but theres a couple of ways of doing it.

Basically you apply damage to your ship, but count in resists to decrease the incoming damage, but the incoming damage can be different, many people commonly use uniform damage (25% of the total damage for each damage type) or damage of the type that you have the highest or lowest resist against.

So lets say we have a ship with 75% Explosive resist, 0% EM and can regen 25HP/s, and the damage we simulate is 100HP explosive damage.

So 100HP - 75% resist gives us only 25HP of damage getting to the shields but those 25HP are repped in that same second, so it then appears that the ship is effectively repping 100HP/s.

But if we apply 100HP EM damage, there is no resist, so 100HP hit the shield and only 25HP are repped in the second, so the EHP/s repped is only 25HP's.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#10 - 2016-12-16 15:06:56 UTC
Keiral wrote:
Ok so with the latest expansion the numbers for shield regen on the fitting screeen have changed, from a time (to full recharge) to HP per second.

The only thing that has changed is the way the information is displayed and it should be easy to adapt to this change. Here is a quick example using a simple make believe ship.

The old way, the displays would tell us we had
1,000 hp in shields.
10 seconds for a full recharge.
1,000 hp / 10 second recharge = 100 hp per second repaired.

The new way the displays give us
1,000 hit point in shields
100 hp per second repaired
1000 hp / 100 hp per second = 10 seconds for a full recharge

In the case of your Drake and your Rokh as well as all of your other ships noting has changed except the way the information is displayed and your ships will perform the same as they have in the past.
Sara Starbuck
Adamantine Creations
#11 - 2016-12-17 11:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Starbuck
If nothing has changed then your peak recharge is at roughly 30% shields and it is about 2.4times faster than the average recharge. After about 20% recharge rate starts to drop VERY rapidly, so generally if your shields go under 30% you should keep very keen eye on them in case you want to warp out or get some distance.