These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A question dealing with the 'Free-miner' haters
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#41 - 2012-01-19 02:49:16 UTC
Amana, for the effort you put into this thread, you probably could find better deals or choices than you currently know of. You don't have to run ten miles instead of five, or work instead of play. Just redistribute your time a little better so you've having just as much fun as before, but with more isk and less work.

But I don't mind you selling below cost or whatever. Keep doing that so I can make more money.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-01-19 09:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
You probably misunderstood my motive for my post.

I randomly post on places like the newbie forums, science & industry forum and market discussions forum mostly to educate players - give back a bit to the community by perhaps helping some new player to "get it". I've played for years and even I still sometimes learn new things about EVE. The oft-quoted picture about the learning cliff is still very much true.

EVE has large enough pool of drooling morons who are Doing it Wrong and never read any forums that even if I could get every low end manufacturer/miner who ever read a single forum post to read my post and immediately do as it says, it wouldn't make a dent on the "free minerals" crowd that keeps wasting time and effort in producing Tech 1 goods at below mineral cost. Hence it won't really affect the business of the "junk dealers" who buy below-cost stuff and reprocess it back to minerals.

But it may affect the gameplay enjoyment of a few new industrial types who do take the time to read a bit. People that are new to EVE and haven't realized yet that their broken assumptions are, well, broken. Perhaps one or two such players now break out Google Docs and, for the first time do the math as to what minerals they are using for their T1 manufacturing, what the market price of those minerals is and verify that there is any point in doing what they are doing. At that point they either start selling minerals (or, depending on their refining skills/lack-of, raw ore) and make ISK that way or they re-evaluate as to what to build and switch to something that actually adds to their income instead of reducing it. There are Tech 1 goods that you can build at a profit - it just takes a bit of effort and math to figure out which niche to attack.

They might also spend some time learning how ME/PE research works and perhaps get a few pre-researched prints for the goods they build next or figure out how to do blueprint research.

If even one single newbie industrial type gets this far because he read my post, it was worth posting it.

If not... well... I guess I could refer to the Einstein quote about hydrogen and stupidity and weep. Oh well.

(...oh and I fully understand doing something like T1 manufacturing for a few runs just to understand how everything works, not caring about profit and loss. I'm mostly talking about people who keep doing it, day in, day out while assuming wrongly that they are great industrial tycoon startup, RAKING IT IN because they are CRAFTING STUFF, HEY! while donating 20-30% of their income away to refining taxes and income of "junk reprocessors" that snatch below-market-value stuff)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#43 - 2012-01-19 10:59:29 UTC
Hm, so junk reprocessors are acting like asset strippers.

That said, while it is not entirely surprising that dislocations (products selling for less than mineral cost) occur, it is fortunate that there are individuals who make back for society what is lost due to inefficient production decisions by earning arbitrage profit.

The individuals who assume making things must be more profitable than selling raw materials assume some sort of no arbitrage. To some extent they are right because once their things are bought and reprocessed, the dislocation they caused is gone.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
#44 - 2012-01-19 12:02:04 UTC
I think people forget that while the hard core industrialists in game have perfect skills and all, the new players do not. What may or may not make sense to the hard core players doesn't apply the same to new players.

While your looking at profit loss statements, the new players that do not have the perfect skills are only looking at getting that next ship, or what ever new shiney they have their eye on, so they tend to sell the minerals for what ever they can get out of it as quickly as possible so they can get their hands on it. Market PvPers only compund it. A new player will see that they just placed something for sale on the market only to be undercut a few minutes later, so they take it back and undercut again, they need the ISK while your playing profit PvP. So they learn from the start, undercut or they'll be undercut and never be able to buy that shiney they have their eye on.

Seriously, when your new everything is pretty much a loss because you don't have the skill sets to compete, and most people that pay to play a game don't want to just log in to switch skills for the first 6 months or so, so they can have the perfect skills to play the game/ compete as good as the older players.
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-01-19 18:08:56 UTC
I'm not a heavy industrialist by any measure, nor an energetic businessman, so I try to move my modest wares as quickly as possible; but I will admit that I'm a bit sentimental about the stuff I make too. (Even you little Small Shield Extender I.) I make as sure as I can that it is unprofitable for anyone to buy out what I put up for sale just to melt it down because I want to maximize the chance that what I sell will be used for the purpose for which it was build, be it out in space, turned in to a LP store for something else, as a component in something better, or even hauled out to a more profitable market. It's all good.

If I can't get the price I want however, I'll melt what I made down myself and try again.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#46 - 2012-01-19 18:48:56 UTC
People care because, as was said, they are being undercut. By themselves.

There is a cost, in time, for mining. The time used for mining could otherwise be used for other, more profitable, activities like missions. If the person profits enough from these other activities they can simply buy the building materials they need, while also gaining other rewards such as standings and LP.

Industrialists do not profit much by mining. Miners profit by mining (and even then, hisec mining isn't very rewarding at all). If the industralist splits their time between mining and making ISK they are performing at a lower economic level than those whom gain great profit from missions, Incursions, or other such things and then use this ISK to simply buy the matts.

It's all about output, gain, and time. Besides, if you're not mining ABC why would you want to mine? I get all the matts I need from ratting in my spare time, and I also gain a tidy sum of ISK in the process.
Skorpynekomimi
#47 - 2012-01-19 22:15:47 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:

It's all about output, gain, and time. Besides, if you're not mining ABC why would you want to mine? I get all the matts I need from ratting in my spare time, and I also gain a tidy sum of ISK in the process.


Generally, because mining is actually pretty calming. Calculate cycles remaining in rocks, cargo hold management, pop rats at the right distance so you can loot them without moving.

Economic PVP
Miranda Fluffbunny
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-01-20 13:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Fluffbunny
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Okay, I am a newb, so I obviously havent as much experience in these matters as all of you, but here is my opinion on this:

I can spend all day mining pyro in my mining frigate of noobery, hauling it in my hauler of noobishness, and make about 1 mil isk per haulage trip back to base, which takes over an hour to mine. I can then refresh the can and continue mining... and continue mining... and keep mining. At the end of the day, I can make about 10 mil isk, depending how hard I try, whether there is an orca around etc etc. The next day I login and start mining again. And the next day.

Or

I can mine for a few hours in my mining frigate of noobery, haul it back, reprocess with very inefficient refining skills, manufacture some basic t1 modules with horrendous ineffienciency - the blueprints are so demeaning, pointing out how wasteful you are being - haul them to a minor trade hub in my industrial of noobishness, and sell for about 70% of the value of the ore if Im lucky.

One of them makes the most isk, the other makes me actually engage with the game. Im am still getting a fair bit of isk, considering that the noob shopping list is pocket change to 95% of players, and I am enjoying playing the game.

Could I maximise my time and make more isk? Yes, of course I could. I have an IQ over my shoe size, I realise that I could squeeze a fraction more isk by simply selling the ore raw. Do I care? No.

I am aiming at being a 'real' industrialist/manufacturer, so some of my early skills have reduced the loss in 'potential isk' to the point where refining ore and selling the minerals resulted in only a loss of 0.8% of the potential value of the ore after a days mining. I do know that eventually, refining and manufacturing will actually be the more profitable way to go, but for now, I dont really care about the handful of isk I am losing out on.


I basically agree with this. As a newbie to Eve the absolute best way I can turn time into ISK is to buy a plex and sell it on the market, since one plex cost about 15-20 minutes at my real life job. But for me the pleasure is in playing and learning the game, and less about squeazing the absolute most ISK I can out of what I do.

I can see a time in the future when I will find fun in turning maximum profit but right now, playing and enjoying all aspects of the industrial side of the game is what I consider best use of my time.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#49 - 2012-01-20 20:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
I have spoken against the "minerals I mine are free" crowd many times.

And although I still believe that the minerals have a market value no matter how you acquired them, I also respect the choice many players make to mine, manufacture, trade before they have the skills to do it profitably.

If that is what you want to do with your game time that is your choice. It is not like you can sell manufactured items for the mineral value you have into them when your skills are lacking and you BPs are not researched. You need to sell at market rate, or slightly below to sell your stuff.

Profitable? NO, but how will you learn if you do not jump in.

What is the difference between placing no value on the minerals you mine yourself or placing buy orders far below the mineral value.

I am sure there are far more manufacturers under cutting the market buy placing very low buy orders in noob systems and manufacturing and selling items below market because they were able to buy their minerals at below market cost. that is not ignoring the mineral value it is just good business taking advantage of lower cost suppliers.

The volume of goods produced by noob players that have not reached the skill/knowledge level in EVE to run a profitable indy business in game is minimal. Experienced players know where the isk is to be made and have no problem making it.

The profitable products are the ones that are the most skill intensive to make and are thus out of the reach of Noob manufacturers anyway. By the time they have the skills to make a good profit manufacturing they will be well beyond the "minerals I mine are free" mentality. besides any serious manufacturer knows you can not mine enough yourself to sustain any decent amount of manufacturing. You need freighter loads of minerals every day to keep a well skilled characters slots full 23/7.
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#50 - 2012-01-21 11:06:36 UTC
Just buy their stuff and reprocess it?

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.
Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#51 - 2012-01-22 14:10:47 UTC
Amana Tsasa wrote:
Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other.

My question is, why do so many other people care?


Because hidden deep within the center of New Eden is a massive Epeen Singularity which drives the game. The pretty graphics of Eve are simply to distract from this constant compulsion to figure out ways to make my epeen is bigger than your epeen. Miners and everything to do with them are the equivalent of the fat kid on the playground.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#52 - 2012-01-22 18:10:34 UTC
Marsan wrote:
One thing to understand is a lot of HS miners aren't just mining. They are mining while chatting, watching TV or the like. So in effect the minerals are free as they would be chatting, watch TV and the like in any event. So they make rifter, drakes or the like for friends and corpmates and sell the rest. They make more than enough isk via mining to fund their activities so they have no motive to maximize their return.


While this is true about mining, that's still no reason to devalue what you have through inefficient T1 production. As for the original question, people dislike the MIMAF crowd because it makes many/most t1 goods unprofitable to produce. MIMAF people do it in a way that hurts both themselves and other people, and the perception is most of them are ignorant of this, instead of doing it out of a sense of it being fun or rewarding. The suicide gank analogy was a good one, except there are no explosions, big ticket losses, or chance of recovering something of value.

The result is that myself and others unapologetically hold the MIMAF people in contempt.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#53 - 2012-01-24 00:31:06 UTC
Batelle wrote:
As for the original question, people dislike the MIMAF crowd because it makes many/most t1 goods unprofitable to produce.

Except you are wrong. The MIMAF players have very little impact on your profitability.

Supply and demand is the rule. Each item has a fixed demand which is based on how many of them are blown up and how many players have extra isk laying around and decide to add that item to their hangar. Demand does vary with metagame factors such as FOTM and balance changes by CCP, but absent external factors like those, the demand for specific items do not change quickly.

If the supply of an item is less than the demand, then the prices will increase as they are bought off the market faster than you can restock. You make lots of isk and throw parties because you are happy.

However, the barrier to entry for manufacturing is very low in this game, and manufacturing times are very quick. This means that no item can stay very profitable for very long. There are plenty of other industrialists looking over their individual spreadsheets wondering about different things to build. They all want to be as happy as you. It will not take long for a few other industrialists find your item and notice its profitibility. Suddenly there will be a glut of that item on the market. Each producer lowers their prices repeatedly because there are more items entering the market than being purchased by end-users. This continues until the price of the item approaches the value of the minerals used to make it.

This is when some people start buying them and reprocessing them back to minerals. Other people buy and re-list them or move them to a different market. Most manufacturers stop building them and look for more profitable items. Still other manufacturers get insulted. "I bought this BPO, and now I cannot use it to print ISK anymore!" Then they come to the forums and write an angry post spewing venom at MIMAF players.



However, consider what the MIMAF player does to the game:

They are all very small-time producers. Any serious industry requires the manufacturer to buy their own minerals. If a handfull of additional items made by a few MIMAF players is enough to depress the price to unprofitability, then the damand for that item must already be miniscule and not worth the serious industrialist's time.

They put low priced items onto the market. This gives opportunities for other players who like to trade or reprocess or haul stuff around. Cheep PVP is also good for increasing demand for everything else!

They are usually new players, trying to figure out how this game works. They are not counting on income from their sales for their spending money. They are producing and selling for fun and exploring the game. Who are you to tell them they are "doing it wrong"?

I usually see much more venom, hatred, and contempt directed at this group from other carebears than I see directed at carebears from PVPers. It would be funny, except that I wonder how many of these new players decide to quit the game when other players treat them so rudely?
Cardval Simalia
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-01-24 00:49:59 UTC
Free Mining is caused by botters being paranoid. They know their ore was botted and they feel that they might draw attention if they sell it directly so they actually make crap at a loss. Let's let them know that CCP does not give 2 ***** if you sell your ill gotten ore directly. Just don't sell it for dollars, you'll get banned for that.
Devil tiger
#55 - 2012-01-24 11:07:40 UTC
Sometimes you can make a tidy profit from "my minerals/materials are free" dimwits...

just buy their junk from market and scrap it for minerals which you can then sell for near double profit Twisted


So I got nothing against them really Roll
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-01-25 00:28:10 UTC
OP, it's simple: many people want you to play THEIR game, not your own. They want you to place a value on every single MINUTE you spend logged in, and refuse to accept the concept that IT'S A FRIGGIN GAME, and people may just do it to have fun and don't give a crap about time spent.

One quick question for you to answer: what happens to your wallet when you use your own minerals to produce something to sell, and what happens to your wallet when you buy someone else's minerals to produce stuff to sell?

Answer that question for yourself; other people's answers are entirely irrelevant.

(Cue the "spend 2 million to sell for one million" failsauce arguments)
lCoCol
Marlboro Light Industries
#57 - 2012-02-16 12:21:45 UTC
Amana Tsasa wrote:
Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other.

My question is, why do so many other people care?


What I want to know is, why do you care if other people care?

And in before someone asks me, why I care, if Amana cares, if other people care.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#58 - 2012-02-16 15:34:23 UTC
Borun Tal wrote:
OP, it's simple: many people want you to play THEIR game, not your own. They want you to place a value on every single MINUTE you spend logged in, and refuse to accept the concept that IT'S A FRIGGIN GAME, and people may just do it to have fun and don't give a crap about time spent.

One quick question for you to answer: what happens to your wallet when you use your own minerals to produce something to sell, and what happens to your wallet when you buy someone else's minerals to produce stuff to sell?

Answer that question for yourself; other people's answers are entirely irrelevant.

(Cue the "spend 2 million to sell for one million" failsauce arguments)



The argument isn't spend 2 million to sell for one.

It's 'Don't bother selling your 2 million worth of minerals, instead making something and selling it for one million.'

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#59 - 2012-02-16 20:33:27 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It's simple. Both are bad.

"Minerals I mine myself are free" guys are wasting someone else's (who understands the value of time) profits.

Those who flame the above (often it's other miners) are oblivious that there are always baddies everywhere. They should USE them to get cheap labor, not blame them while still subjecting themselves to the same cheap labor.



Bolded the important part.

The problem with the above statement is that we are talking about a GAME. If this were real life then yes theses business people would be idiots and run their "corps" into bankruptcy.

But EVE is a game. There is no set standard on a person's value of their time spent.

There are those in every MMO that simply like to craft. Sometimes they eve like to craft everything from scratch. Then they also don't care about competition and just want to sell their wares without hassle. For these players the time spent collecting the materials to craft their wares have an intrinsic value not in terms of opportunity cost, but in their game enjoyment.

Sure it is a flawed idea in a business framework. But honestly, I do that every day for my real job. I play EVE to escape that stuff (which is honestly why i can't get into the industrial side all that much).



I agree with this.

However, I would like to see their face if they found out the 30 ships they just sold to me were immediately reprocessed and the minerals sold. I wonder if that would affect their warm, fuzzy crafting feeling...
Nub Sauce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-02-16 21:16:54 UTC
The people who care only care because the statement is false. Time always has an attatched value. It's a simple fact.

They don't care about the supposed undercutting of prices - we can just buy these cheap listed items and throw them back on the market for the actual market value and make profit.

In conclusion:

What I mine is free = false.

Those who tell people that 'What I mine is free' is false are just upset that they are being undercut and losing profilts = false.

Anyone who sells items for less than market value in an attempt to sell them to new players for a good price (or any other reason) are really just giving away profits to the first trader that sees their underpriced goods on the market = true.