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M-OEE8 and who is to Blame for the tragic consequences of 138 million

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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#21 - 2016-12-12 00:23:33 UTC
I think the Scope is covering this incident, because it is the first ? case of a Keepstar being engaged and destroyed while properly operational and armed.

Just as the first Outpost that was constructed by capsuleer efforts was notable, but the say... 87th outpost to be constructed, wouldn't even get mentioned except in the local constellation/region capsuleer intelligence news.

Or the first capsuleer owned Titan being engaged and put out of action. That made the Scope news. Why, didn't the SOCT or someone hand out sections of hull plating from it a couple of years ago, as souvenirs ? The last Titan to be put out of action, did that even appear in a Scope news ticker ?

So, I expect that say, the 39th Keepstar to be engaged and destroyed, won't be covered by the Scope at all.

Capsuleers have the habit of making the significant become the mundane in quite a short period of time.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2016-12-12 00:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
In which case all this hand wringing and chest beating is just part of the spectacle. An empty performance of grief and outrage in a vain attempt to demonstrate to whoever is watching that they at least are not horrible people. Got it.

... or the slightly more complicated act of dwelling a moment on their own involvement in such a thing, my lord. A ship is a tool first, a harvester, transport, or weapon that happens to have a lot of people on it.

A major station, or citadel, is a home, a habitat. That's kind of what it's for.

Even if both might be targeted in a war, the gravity of destroying one might be a little more obvious than the other.

My angry words to Miz notwithstanding, ruthlessness and thoughtlessness don't really need to walk hand in hand, my lord.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2016-12-12 05:22:59 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
It's far from the gravest sin performed in New Eden, even that day alone, but trying to reduce the responsibility by spreading it thinly across everyone who ever contributed to the capsuleer economy through less violent acts is disingenuous.


Nobody's reducing the responsibility. You're responsible for what you do. You always are. That doesn't mean others aren't responsible for contributing to the system that enables you to do what you do. You don't act in a vacuum, and anyone who wants to pontificate like their hands are clean of the billions of lives we willfully and intentionally snuff out every week or so is just hypocritical. The buck stops with you for what you do. But the vast majority of the pilots who fired those missiles didn't sell them, they didn't produce them, and they didn't profit from that aspect of the economy of death.

There is a vast difference between absolving you of what you do, or diluting your culpability for your actions, and holding other people accountable for theirs, too.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#24 - 2016-12-12 06:55:39 UTC
CONCORD is to blame for allowing unloyal pilots to use Capsule interface.

That technology should have been property of Caldari State alone, and only Caldari Navy should had ability to use it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#25 - 2016-12-12 14:05:41 UTC
It's not genocide when the winning side does it, you can also label them as enemy combatants.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2016-12-12 14:52:31 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
CONCORD is to blame for allowing unloyal pilots to use Capsule interface.

That technology should have been property of Caldari State alone, and only Caldari Navy should had ability to use it.



Your naivete is adorable.

The reason why CONCORD allows unloyal and lawless pilots is the same reason why you're bogged down in an unwinnable war with the Federation. Because they make ISK off of it.

And do spare us the us rhetoric on how the State will prevail. Under normal circumstances, with traditional ships and weaponry? Yeah, maybe. But with CONCORD pulling the strings of you and the State, the war will never end. And let's not forget Caldari corporations make a tidy profit off war and piracy as well. So is it really in their best interests to have only "loyal" or "lawful" pilots?

No.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2016-12-12 18:26:41 UTC
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#28 - 2016-12-12 18:36:46 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?

Scope sensationalizing. Imagine what message it sends - "Don't go to frontiers, you'll die there. Stay loyal to your Empire." Ofcourse they did evac. But only CO2 has the exact numbers for that - can't fund anyhting on galnet.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#29 - 2016-12-12 18:37:52 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?


With large scale evacuation efforts, you can reasonably evac several million per day. Look at the Seyllin evacuation for numbers. 6 days is a long time, but 132 million is a lot of people.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2016-12-12 19:00:58 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?


Many of them probably did. However, the citadel was still combat-effective, which means it almost certainly still had at least 500,000 to a couple million crew.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-12-12 21:48:00 UTC
We kill a particularly large structure and now everyone pretends to care about baseliners.

How long will this particular indignation last, a week?

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2016-12-12 23:04:08 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
We kill a particularly large structure and now everyone pretends to care about baseliners.

How long will this particular indignation last, a week?


I've killed too many structures to possess the hypocrisy to howl and point fingers, Aya. I suspect the indignation will last so long as it takes those making the noise to realise they have too.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#33 - 2016-12-13 11:58:47 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?


With large scale evacuation efforts, you can reasonably evac several million per day. Look at the Seyllin evacuation for numbers. 6 days is a long time, but 132 million is a lot of people.


They should've been evacuating this thing since late September.

Mid November at the latest, when the war started shifting against COT. It was clear to most involved parties that if PanFam dedicated, it would win. COT could not contest the super fleets, once the cyno jammer in a system went down, it was effectively impossible for COT to win the fight for the system if PanFam dropped supers.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2016-12-13 21:15:47 UTC
I blame Pandemic Legion.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2016-12-13 22:17:41 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?

How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?


With large scale evacuation efforts, you can reasonably evac several million per day. Look at the Seyllin evacuation for numbers. 6 days is a long time, but 132 million is a lot of people.


They should've been evacuating this thing since late September.

Mid November at the latest, when the war started shifting against COT. It was clear to most involved parties that if PanFam dedicated, it would win. COT could not contest the super fleets, once the cyno jammer in a system went down, it was effectively impossible for COT to win the fight for the system if PanFam dropped supers.


Frankly, if the orbital was at serious risk then staff should have been looking to their own escape plans. This was not like taking a job at the foodcourt in Jita IV-4.

I know that sounds like victim blaming, but taking a job in nullsec is a bit similar to working in a Blooder orbital or a Serpentis drug lab. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jev North
Doomheim
#36 - 2016-12-13 22:18:28 UTC
For reference, the Scope reports the latest estimate of the death toll is 62,455,000 people.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-12-14 00:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Now ask yourselves how many people were in each of the keepstars that have died during their start-up shield initialization timer. They needed to be staffed for that cycle. They would have already had full hangar crews. They also would have needed to be ready to initialize the combat systems as soon as that cycle ended.

Nobody cried over those deaths. Nobody from Perkone made big dramatic pronouncements about how humanitarian efforts should have intervened.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#38 - 2016-12-14 00:53:32 UTC
Don't think anyone cried over these deaths either. My issue is when that sort of loss of life is used for cheap political agendas. I won't weep for people making their own choices, but I will sneer in disgust when they're used so maliciously.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#39 - 2016-12-14 03:21:42 UTC
I am partly to blame since I made no effort to save those people.

But the capsuleer mindset has been and always will be: What is in it for me?
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#40 - 2016-12-14 04:26:41 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Now ask yourselves how many people were in each of the keepstars that have died during their start-up shield initialization timer. They needed to be staffed for that cycle. They would have already had full hangar crews. They also would have needed to be ready to initialize the combat systems as soon as that cycle ended.

Each 60 seconds in nullsec a minute passes. There were many. The question is - can you strive to be not part of the problem?
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