Science & Industry

Hi o7

This is just an early tip off for anyone considering planting an Azbel in HS with market service module.

For :reasons:, I do not feel it was a good decision by CCP to allow the same market service modules to be fitted on an Azbel as it can be on a Fortizar. This was pretty meh move for existing investors in Fortizar markets in HS, because Azbels can have the same market functionality while having the production advantage, so I think potentially Azbel markets could 'compete' with Fortizar markets in HS.

However, one major difference noted is that an Azbel has a lot less defensive capability than a Fortizar, so if a HS Azbels start to emerge with market modules and start to compete against the current Fortizar hubs, it is easier/cheaper to remove them via force.

I'm still sitting on the fence regarding whether HS Azbels with market modules will be a good thing or not, but if I conclude that they compete unfairly with the existing fortizar markets, I shall personally invest in merc contracts to have them removed promptly, at least for quite a lot of them I can readily afford to issue merc contracts for.

I think Engineering Complexes offer interesting new opportunities and nice production bonuses, and I can imagine clusters of them working together, each with its own specialisations, to vitalise an area and grow the local community away from the traditional hubs, which would be an excellent thing and I will be happy to invest in. But if Azbel with market modules are set up to cheekily compete with and sh1t on existing Fortizar hubs, be prepared to defend it.

It's nothing big. I just wanted to give an early tip off to anyone considering competing with your local region's fortizar hub with your Azbel + market module, think twice before doing that, or talk to the local fortizar owner in your region to arrange some kind of mutually beneficial cooperation. This could help you avoid potentially expensive loss because you thought you could compete with bigger/stronger Fortizars on the market front with Azbel's production benefits. Communication often leads to good diplomatic solutions that's good for every one.

On a personal note, I have interests in quite a few Fortizar markets across the high sec in all empire regions, but obviously I do not have the entire universe covered. I'm a relatively oversized fish for what I do, but nowhere even close to being big enough to be a 'big fish'. So it could be that your own Azbel + market is so far away from my operation base that it does not matter to me one bit (and I may not even know of its existence), or it could be that I think working with your Azbel is better than working with my local Fortizars and cooperate with your corp for mutual benefit (more ISK for us all!)

But if I log on in various parts of the high sec in New Eden over the coming weeks and find that Azbels are springing up with market hubs everywhere like a plague and competing with Fortizar hubs that people (like me, and friends, and strangers with shared interests and goals) have previously invested time, ISK and effort in, with what may be 'unfair' advantage granted by CCP, instead of complaining on forums about CCP's design choice to allow market module on Azbels, I shall just play by CCP's rules and use war decs & merc mechanics to have them removed at my own cost.

This is not a threat - just a general tip that if you are going to put up a public structure in space, if you are going to cooperate with who's already there, then that could yield benefits for both of you. If you casually open up shop and start 'competing', it shall be met with force. This will stand true even if it's against Fortizars that I have no associations with - if I'm willing to drop y own ISK to have tens of unwanted Azbel competitors removed, I'm sure there will be hundreds of other Fortizar owners who will/can afford to do the same.

I hope this new Azbel thing will be a catalyst for forging more communications and collaborations, rather than costly wars and losses just because we failed to communicate/coordinate beforehand.

Thanks for your time reading this.


Best Regards,

Toobo

Yeah I did get more feedbacks and inputs from people on and off the forums after I made my OP on GD about EC having market modules. I also do consider choices as a good thing, and there are drawbacks/benefits for both options.

However, I do still feel that major draw back for Azbel market may be the defence issue, because from what I've seen, fuel cost difference of that amount is a non-issue considering broker fee income from a reasonably active market hub and trading benefits you can leverage from such hubs.

So I do not think fuel cost difference alone is a balancing factor, but the real balancing factor would be risk vs reward issue if less defence capabilities of an Azbel makes it riskier than operating from a Fortizar.

But hey, someone has to really attack the structure to make the risk real, otherwise it's all just 'potential risk' and theories - I'm sure there will be people other than me who will test this with force for lulz or for their own interests, but I make it public now that I will chip in and do my part if I see Azbel markets compete with existing Fortizars as market hubs, especially if it conflicts with my own interests (obviously) or they in general makes me feel that CCP allowing Azbels to have markets is a 'screw you' for those who already invested in Fortizars.

So there is a trade off by design, such as the fuel cost you mentioned, but I want there to be realistic risk of choosing an Azbel as a market hub instead of an established Fortizar. There are people, like me and many others, who have invested in Fortizars to develop, and it cannot happen that people can waltz in with cheaper Azbels with their production bonuses and contest existing Fortizar markets. Somebody has to ship up or pay up to make the risk real. I am not prepared to ship up, so I will prepare to pay up for it. I hope that makes sense heh.

XD

Well it 'may' be a threat if I really act on it. But to be very honest I would be happier if I did not have to spend hundreds of billions of ISK to go on a 'crusade' against Azbel markets around the New Eden. it can be done, and it may help protect or further my interests in existing structures like Fortizars, but when things escalate that much it may be better to use that ISK in more productive/cooperative ways.

So yes, I'll put my hand up and say this could be a real 'threat', if people start anchoring Azbels with market modules left and right and everywhere and compete with Fortizar markets that are linked with my (and friends and strangers that I can relate to, whatever) own interests. But I think my general 'tip' is a valid one, especially in High Sec. People are relatively used to putting up a POS wherever they want and many of them goes un-noticed/un-touched for long time, because they don't 'compete' with what other players do (at least normally not so much in high sec).

But a Citadel/EC is a different beast, and people who have not run these new beasts before should be aware of that. There are many cases where people who were familiar with doing their own indy thing in HS plonked down Astrahuses here and there, and these things can't be unanchored so quickly like a POS, and many of them were met with overwhelming forces of resistance that the owners didn't anticipate.

Azbels, and other ECs, from what I see, look like they would best work in conjunction with other structures, because of the way they are designed and specialisation is very limited. People can decide to go 'all solo' and plonk them all down in their varieties wherever they want and start pumping out goods, but I want to remind people that is probably not a very good/sustainable idea unless you have big force to back you up in case of aggression.

Even when you take Fortizar markets and competing with them out of equation, it seems it would make more sense/better investment for prospective EC owners in HS to group together with other locals to coordinate together to set up various different structures offering different specializations and also set up ways to defend them together. Many industry focused corps in HS will find it difficult to defend their EC if ISK backed mercs start to knock them down with concentrated effort.

And this WILL happen if people set up their EC to 'compete' with other existing structures, especially Fortizars for example. It's not because Fortizar owners are 'bad people', it's just that ISK wise, people who could afford to buy, anchor, and seed, and continuously develop a single Fortizar market from their release can sponsor merc contracts to remove at least a few Azbels. People who could do many Fortizars, can sponsor destruction of tens of Azbels.

I would recommend that you assume per every Fortizar you see in high sec, there would be at least 50b fund readily available for the owner/associates of such a Fortizar, kept for defences/seeding/reserve ISK, etc. That could probably sponsor 3~6 merc contracts against Azbels, and a lot more for any other EC smaller than an Azbel.

So yes, what I said could end up being a 'threat', and that would not be nice, but I won't deny that I will act upon it and use the ISK to bring down what competes with what I have invested in. But the opposite can also be very possible. In some places where I operate, there already have been some communications going on between various local corps to organise deployment of new ECs, with each corp specialising in what suits to them. This is fantastic I feel. It is efficient for owner of each EC, and they can be assured that they can use other corp's EC at good rate if different specialisation is needed, and they can work with the local Fortizar market hub for even better deals and sales opportunities, and on top of that you can set up defensive pact to make sure that all those involved can gather their resources together to defend.

If I had to choose between spending lots of ISK to destroy tens of ECs that try to compete & conflicts with my own structures, or using the same amount of ISK to help sponsor and foster network of ECs where everyone can benefit and profit, surely the latter would be a nicer thing to do.

That's why I emphasized and made a call for everyone to 'communicate' before ploking down 10b+ worth of structures that could potential 'compete' and bring endless wardecs to them. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this, and many other Fortizar owners in your area would be waiting and monitoring the situations to see what's happening and if anyone's conflicting with their interest/investment or if there are good cooperative opportunities. Maybe it was a bit stupid to say this in such a lengthy post but I know (because despite me having spent much time in low sec before and also having some null interests), because HS indy stuff is where my root is, many HS corps do not coordinate very well with others in the area.

That's a pity, but Civ series is a smashing game (I'm still playing Civ IV, that is classic fun for me heh).

Having said that, playing solo or in your own corp does not mean you can never work together with other people. I know plenty of people who play solo or with their army of alts, but also communicate and coordinate with other players in the area when it's suitable. Have a chat with corps and people around your local. If you don't like being too visible there are always private chat channels and eve mails. Interacting with other players don't always mean fleet ops and massive time commitment you cannot get out of. I mean everybody has real life and most people I come across respect that everybody has different play style/time available to them. Especially in HS it's not going to be like defending null sov where you need bigger group and always stay very alert to unexpected intrusions. HS structures can only be attacked after war dec for which you get notice in advance, which is luxury that does not exist in null.

To each to their own, but I really do believe that there's much that solo players and small corps can do in HS if you are willing to consider a bit more social options. Just my two cents - good luck!

(If all this 'threat' amounts to nothing and I end up running clusters of ECs myself, you are welcome to drop by and join the fun!)

Why not just find a couple of public ECs with low tax rates/good refines ect.

So far I've found 4 Azbels with Market Modules. Most of them in pretty far off places that don't compete much with more established Fortizar markets, but I'm monitoring how things develop. Interesting one is the one in Essence, which is a region that does need some sort of a a market hub and the Fortizar market there has been doing alright. Now there's an Azbel with market, so that would be more specific case that I think could be a test bed to see how Azbel market may compete with a smaller regional hub in the form of a Fortizar. The Fortizar market in Essence has already built quite a bit of momentum/draw this year, can that be dethroned by challenge from an Azbel? We shall see.

Interestingly there is also one in Perimeter set up now, which everyone knows is full of Fortizar markets. It's still so new and small in size in terms of orders placed (from) there I don't think any Perimeter Fortizar owners are concerned at this stage. Let's see how that survives & develop into something bigger. Interesting times. :)

well that would take fun out of it wouldn't it ;)

Let's just say in my gambling days at IWI, I won a lot of Fortizars. There were Fortizar bundles that had like 5 x Fortizars in one raffle, and they could double, or even tripple. End result is you end up with 15 Fortizars off a single bet, on a single day. Of course, I may not claim all of them as items, because I would want to claim some of them as ISK to gamble more (when it was allowed :p), but I would claim some as items, because I know my habbits, so I know I should claim them as items to keep.

My biggest raffle win was double on Wyvern BPO bundle, which resulted in 12 x Wyvern BPOs, which was very nice, and could fund quite a few things. But there have been just countless number of wins on Jumpfreighter bundles, dreadnought bundles, carrier bundles, Cap BPO bundles, whatever. Things built up and I spread the good luck (and free fortizars) and got good deals in return. I can't run these structures myself because I'm not reliable enough to keep them fueled and manage the rights and stuff. So I support people who could do these things with what I could offer.

So yeah, you could try to find which ones are related to me, but it's no big deal, and to be honest I don't know. Some stuff I gave my CEO and ask him to give them away as he sees fit, as he's more connected with people at those levels.

The point I made was something I wanted to express generally though. It's not about just MY fortizar and MY interest. It's about the general interests of local Fortizar owners, who I know planned and invested and baby sat their hubs for quite some time now.

Will I take it more personalyl if something competes with fortizar that is owned by a friend? Probably. But it doesn't matter. My gripe about them has started out as a general whine on GD, then I checked with Mercs about how much it would cost to remove them (so I won't whine on forums and instead spend ISK in game to do something about them), and the price was affordable for me to be confident that I can do quite a few removal contracts for them. That's no where enough to fight the whole of the EVE obviously, but let's say, 'Next 30 Azbels to online with market modules in HS shall be contracted for removal' - that would delay things for some time, at least for people who casually planned it. That could get people to communicate more before hand, not specifically with me, but with their local fortizar friends in general. It is this general notion/trend of communication I wanted to promote, not specifically about my interests, etc.

That's pretty much what I thought originally, that the structure itself is pretty irrelevant, but what's more important is the quality/size of the defence fleet, whether it's your own corp/alliance or merc forces.

For me, defence was not an issue, as I have other defensive sources that I do not need to rely on having to hire mercs to defend structures with my own interests in them. But when I poked around, the feedback I got was that mercs themselves see EC as easier job, if the opposition defence fleet is of the same quality, and this is reflected in the merc contract cost, where a job to remove a Fortizar costs considerably more than a job to remove an EC, if both structures are owned by the same alliance.

Of course, if you are comparing an undefended Fortizar vs. a fully defended Azbel, the latter will always be harder to remove. But if both structures are owned by the same entity, and can field same quality/size of the defensive fleet, then the inherent defensive capabilities of the structure itself does come into play.

It's simple really. A Fortizar defended by a 100 men fleet, with gunners having more defensive modules available, and with more EHP to start with, will obviously be tougher to break than an Azbel with the same 100 men defence fleet, with less structural defences available.

And well, wallet size always matters, for anything, whether solo or alliance. It's just that an alliance would find it easier to increase its wallet size and protect its isk faucet through group effort, compared to a solo player who has to do everything by himself.

ha?

well I'll just summarise again what I said in other thread regarding this issue -

the potential 'risk' of owning an Azbel (with its less defensive capability) is greater than owning a Fortizar, only if someone make that potential risk 'real' by really attacking it. Before such an attack actually takes place, it's just a 'potential' risk, so all I want to do is to make sure that this 'potential risk' does actually become a 'real' concern.

I do understand your point though. The 'cost' of defending your EC will not change whatever I do. If you are not defending it yourself and are contracting mercs for it, it will not matter whether I attack it, or some other alliance attack it, or anyone else attack it by paying for mercs. If you need to pay to have it defended, you will end up paying the same price anyway regardless who attacks it.

So yeah, in that sense the 'cost' will be a constant. But i do not agree that the 'risk' of having your Azbel+market module attacked is constant. For some, who didn't think through it well enough before, maybe the 'risk' was 'unknown', ranging from 'quite possible' to 'maybe' or whatever. But with me making myself clear here, I think you can consider the chance to be 'probable to guaranteed, unless I make effort to coordinate first'.

That's where the main point lies. You can plant an Azbel with market module, with pretty good chance that you will attract a war dec if you happen to compete with existing structure owners, whether it be me or anyone else. But with coordination with your local partners, you can decrease the chance of that happening dramatically, and that's my 'tip' on the prospective owners, on how to decrease the risk for yourself and your assets.

I thought that'd be a quite helpful tip. :p

Think what you will. I don't blame you for not going through all my posts (I mean who who would do that, unless they were stalking me lol), but if you ever care to look, I actually discussed all this very openly in forums across GD to C&P and also on here.

It started with a pretty obvious and explicit complaint/whine to CCP, just as you mentioned here, as I was not happy with this implementation. I never hid that fact I wasn't happy with it, because long before ECs even made their way to SISi, I have said multiple times that CCP should NOT allow market modules on Azbels, and quite a few people agreed with me on this along the way, although I'm sure there have also been other people who thought differently.

Then I made an official whine/complaint thread on GD regarding this, and I actually had quite a good feedback from some people, who pointed out a few things I did not consider that deeply before, one of the main things being that EC defence is considerably weaker than a Fortizar defence. Like I said, I originally thought this would be a non-issue, but it was actually mercs that told me the difference is quite significant, and I was wrong to consider this difference in inherent structural defensive capabilities as a 'non-issue', as you seem to be saying now.

Then I had a thread in C&P, where I openly asked for and got quotations for merc job on Azbel removals. I had feedbacks on that, mostly through in game eve mails. And the quotations I've received clearly showed that mercs see/rate an Azbel removal differently than they see a Fortizar removal. I especially asked for quotations on removing a Fortizar, vs quotations on removing Azbels, if they were owned by the same alliance in a same system - and guess what, from what I've got, there IS price difference. So you are saying it has nothing to do with EC vs C and such, but the feedbacks I've been getting do show that there is real, substantial difference.

So in short I made my 'whine', which is pretty obvious, on GD, of all places, got some feedback, and things just developed from there, which ended up with me posting here.

You somehow make it sound like I'm making a 'stealth whine thread' on this forum and you see through my intentions, but frankly, it has never been a stealth whine, and everything I mentioned above I openly discussed in all these relevant forums.


I even specifically said in a C&P thread - "that this was a feature implemented by CCP which I did not like, but instead of raging or whining to CCP to make game changes, I'm going to use available in game means to destroy what I do not like to see, if I find that they really do get on to my nerves". I mean how more explicit could I get - there has never been any 'stealth whine' or masked intentions going on here. :p

And good luck finding merc to defend your EC if a contract has already been given to one of the major mercs to remove your EC. Obviously anything may be possible with enough ISK, but you are not going to easily find another merc to fight against a major HS merc to defend your EC. They are mercs, but they don't just take any job and put their ships and time and effort and records in line for any job.

So

a) you are wrong to assume that EC & C makes no difference, because they clearly do make very tangible difference, in terms of ISK needed to attack/defend

b) even without the mercs, if you have alliance FCs to discuss such things with, try to find out what kind of defence fleet/the size/ships you need to prepare to have the defence fleet ready for a Fortizar, and for an EC, and while it would obviously vary depending on who the attackers are, but you will find that you need more stuff prepared to defend an EC than a Fortizar, just as general minimum level of prepration

c) if you ever plant an EC, and a merc is assigned to remove your EC, then good luck trying to find another merc to come and fight against the attacking merc, to defend your EC, you are pretty wrong if you think you can easily & readily hire a merc to fight against another merc already in op, while you look outside your structure to see the firework between two mercs

I appreciate your input, and there are some things which were good to discuss (such as 'fixed cost' thing), but you need to look/consider more into this. You could have budget set aside to hire merc to defend your EC in case of an attack, but it's very likely a) they will not take your offer if another merc is already working on removing your EC, b) they may take the job, but you will have to pay far more than what you estimated to be the defence cost, because you will basically be asking a merc to fight another merc - this is totally different from hiring a merc to fight random high sec war deccers or even a large but non-merc alliance.

Ironically, the best option for you is to pay & set up a pre-emptive defence contract with one of the major mercs. This though, would make me smile a little inside.