Player Features and Ideas Discussion

except they will be able to do it with the modules that you fit to these ships. So if i have to go to the hub to get the fits and the ship is also going to be cheaper in the hub why am i going to shop anyplace else?

Ah, now there's an issue I know something about. Competition actually occurs pretty quickly even with a small number of sellers. Anyone who has stocked an alliance hub has probably experienced this. Two or three players in an active item will only have competitive pressure eased by high demand. Widespread demand will always be low to moderate compared to major hubs. There's no way around that. The big issue for consumers will always be the breadth of goods on offer, and the number of sellers overlapping on each of those items. That's why I want to throw this system wide open to all comers, not last or least our new friends the alphas. The more people participating, the better for the market ecologies as a whole.

Nobody should have to go to Jita just to put a simple ship together at a reasonable cost. Actually, if you take a look around, T1 hulls usually aren't even all that cheap in any of the major hubs. That's one of the few things that you can usually get cheaper elsewhere. For example, as of this posting, the cheapest Merlin on the market appears to be in some obscure backwater of Metropolis.

The problem is some stations have thin markets you noted the problem back up stream already...it is also in the title of this thread.

You cannot make a thick market where there is nobody to buy and sell stuff. Some areas of the game just...well...they suck. Even if you could put up dozens of sell orders across a region I doubt you'll get the result you are looking for. You stuff will just sit there and not sell...because there is nobody there to buy it.

Removal of NPC stations train of thought.

1. existing items owned by the pool of everyone.
asset safety / magic ---> relocation ?

2. the game play style of level 1-5 agent missions
That / play style get ended / altered / ?

3. game lore regarding the Everything relating to the backstory.
altered changed with removal of existing stations?

1. Same as Citadels or Same as Citadels but 0% rather than 15% depending on lore explanation.
2. Agents can relocate, currently only a very few agents get run heavily, so it wouldn't over populate any mission hub anyway. (Basically SOE agents, look at NPC kills on the map, there are three strong highsec clusters most days, all SOE hubs)
3. Lore is easy to write, because it's a changing story. NPC corps could close their stations to capsuleers for whatever reason, they could have shield issues allowing capsuleers to damage them forcing close, etc. Personally I'd go with closing them without player attack because it avoids the issues of 'Why don't the people that attacked civilian stations get perma banned from highsec' (Because it's terrible for the game to perma ban for legit in game stuff obviously, but immersion issue if you do attack and get away with it). But back story is irrelevant, because this would just be current news.

I also was saying that somewhat tongue in cheek to point out that even if you consider no market in a station a problem, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Even if I do believe the number of high sec stations needs drastically reducing in some way.

Thank you for the reply.

Guys, I do not think you understand the nature of 'empty stations', it is lore related.

We are capsulers of New Eden, so markets are seed with items that we as spaceships pilots can use, but beside capsulers that are 0.001% of global population, so called elit, there are other groups of people that live and make up so called civilization of New Eden. People from other social groups have they own seeded markets - we can not see them, we can not have interaction with them, they are virtual to us. Just because npc station seems to be empty, because there is no capsular module on the market, does not necessarily mean that there are billions of people living they little life on them.

For capsular perspective you've already answered why there are empty stations in empty systems. There is no lucrative agents giving missions in them, or system is not at path between hubs, it is not entrance to low-sec pipe, or null pipe, instead it is **** hole, and even if you will fit it with full market it remains useless system.

But despite all of that, if you really want to be able to make certain extra amount of sell/buy orders in station I think we should consider moving this idea on corporation level or alliance so it may be something 'new' to game system. We already have corporation orders but no one use them that often and they consume privet order, with is not cool. Alliance orders, there is no such thing, it would be fun to have something like that, and be able to recognize corporation, alliance and privet orders from each other on market UI as a customer, so you can support your people and fight with they competition.

No, I don't see any particular abusability in what he proposed, and it's already doable, in a comparatively inconvenient way, thanks to Alphas.

I don't think it usefully addresses the problem he's trying to address, though.

The problem has nothing to do with market orders. It has to do with how safe, quick, and cheap it is to haul large amounts of stuff in Eve generally, but especially in high security space.

You would have more hubs if it was harder to haul stuff to the "best" market.

My corp forms a market hub in our 0.0 home because flying large quantities of goods to and from another market is never safe, quick, and cheap. It can be safe and quick, but it won't be cheap for the average player (sunk cost of the jump freighter, plus fuel). Other methods are too inefficient to actually stock a market. They either take too much time, or too much effort/m3.

Hauling in 0.0 is currently too expensive for everyone to go to Jita, but cheap enough if you can aggregate orders for a large group.

People will pay a slight premium to not have to fly to Jita to fit out a ship. A player or two can make a slight profit off that convenience.

For example, because it is relatively cheap, I can buy a bunch of ships and their fittings in Jita. I then contract the pile to my corporation for 300 ISK/m3. One of the jump freighter pilots aggregates a few different orders and hauls it. It takes a few seconds to multifit all the ships. I take a look at the spreadsheet where I have the current price for each fit. I add the 300 ISK/m3 to that pricel (well, the spreadsheet does this for me). Because I'm not doing this to gouge my friends or make a real profit, I round up to the nearest million (not bad on an 80m ISK Sabre). Then I can use "copy contract" to put all those ships on alliance contracts. Now all my friends have fitted ships to fly. Because I don't have to invest much time in it, I don't have to see a huge return on the investment (apart from the huge return I get from having lots of friends flying well-fit ships in my fleets).

I could easily make more profit off my alliance mates, but then I would feel like a jerk. The point at which someone starts undercutting you is somewhere around Jita +20%.

If I wanted to maximize my profits, I could use Red Frog to move most of the stuff even more cheaply through high security space. Then I basically only have to tip the hauler to take it one jump from the last high security system to our staging area. A full freighter load from Jita to our last high security system only costs 26 M, or 31 isk/m3. Even with 2 bil collateral from Blue Frog its only 139 isk/m3.

Because it is super cheap and super safe to haul large quantities of goods in high security space, you generally do not have to take a jump freighter that far to be connected to the best market in the game. All you have to do is get to high security space. Some places that is harder (e.g. Tenal), but other places it really could not be easier (e.g. Tribute).

I would love to see a few critical gate links get severed. I would love to see some more low security space between the four empires. I would love to see jump freighters get some additional reductions in fuel efficiency. Those things would encourage people to spread out. Those things would help break up Jita.

But all of it has to happen. You cannot just nerf jump freighters. You cannot just make hauling in high security space less safe, less quick, or less cheap.

I kind of disagree with your intrinsic premise here, and frankly that of the OP, which is that the market hubs are a problem.

Yes, you would certainly see a few more hubs if moving things around High Sec was more dangerous, but you would probably also see a pretty massive disintegration of the high-sec play style as well, since most high-sec play styles rely to some extent on that safety.

If you did it through dispersing low-sec between the empires then you'd probably end up with the current trade hubs, more or less, OR players congregating more towards Caldari space for easier access to Jita.

The main issue with the desire to "break up" the trade hubs is actually pointed out indirectly in your post here. Players like them. They created them out of convenience and a desire to do less work to buy and sell goods.

The entire reason your staging system is one Jump Freighter from High Sec is because doing logistics further out is a massive pain in the butt. One of the biggest determiners of "space quality" in Null has always been how far it is from High Sec because a longer logistics chain is more vulnerable and harder to deal with.

If you look at the existing trade hubs they generally have sufficient coverage so that you don't have to travel more than about 10 jumps from a minor mission hub to a trade hub. In places where this used to not be true, or wherever there are larger concentrations of players, you start to see new hubs spring up. This is why Minmattar space has both Rens and Hek while the other regions have one hub each, because both Rens and Hek serve slightly different markets despite being close to each other.

To sum up what I'm getting at here, I think any attempt to force trade hubs to break up has just as much of a chance of simply causing players to congregate around them as breaking them up, because spreading goods out like OP wants is inconvenient for the sellers and buyers, and because players will find the path of greatest convenience which leads to hub systems.