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[GalFed] Villore Assembly: Public Health in Gamma and Delta Cities

Author
Ameriya
Doomheim
#21 - 2016-12-06 17:06:18 UTC
Can we please not start comparing improvised emergency aid in the field to medicine in a hospital or clinic? This really distracts from the point.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-12-06 17:08:58 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
Can we please not start comparing improvised emergency aid in the field to medicine in a hospital or clinic? This really distracts from the point.


*Annoyingly high pitch whining* But he started it!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ameriya
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-12-06 17:16:07 UTC
This is why I don't have kittens.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#24 - 2016-12-06 17:22:21 UTC
Quote:
which may include but is not limited to


This conversation shouldn't even have started if this line was properly read...

Honestly this just seems like some lame attempt to seek relevance because something having to do with ones field is the topic of discussion.

Sadly it could have been done in an entirely more productive way, but I guess sometimes people prefer a dramatic statement over a sensible one.

Oh well.
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#25 - 2016-12-06 18:14:11 UTC
What would also be beneficial, in my opinion, would be some open-source, DRM-free, blueprints for various medical machinery, to allow the people to help themselves, using the resources and skills of the local communities to build and maintain a higher standard of machine than they might otherwise have access to.

You see, in a lot of cases, hospital machinery comes with all sorts of financial strings attached - maintenance contracts, "donations" of equipment with secret clauses to purchase certain pharmaceuticals in return, and so on. The equipment suppliers know what they're doing, and will often offer a discount on the capital cost of purchasing a device, and have inflated prices on the consumables used by said device. A scanner device for uncommon conditions that results in a squeeze on the budget for supplies needed for more general medicine, is not an ideal situation.

So, keep that in mind.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2016-12-06 18:24:31 UTC
The impoverished pharmaceutical and medical technologies companies of the world need help making ends meet too.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#27 - 2016-12-06 18:36:09 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
I say this as a doctor. How in the actual heck do you miss AIMEDs on a list of medical supplies?

Additionally, why would you still use ionizing radiation for medical imaging? The more I read this, the more I worry about all of you. What else do you want? A needle and thread to sew up lacerations? How about some leeches, too?

As someone who designs, crafts, and implements advanced equipment, I can answer that.

Complex technology fails. Typically when you need it not to. These cities have a less capable infrastructure to maintain more sophisticated equipment as well, which isn't as much of an issue when you're on a core world. Simple, practical supplies with a low failure rate are, in this instance, a better front line. I'm sure no one would decry getting the more sophisticated items, but from a realistic standpoint, these basic amenities will be more effective when needed, simply because they will work when needed.

It's a principle I use in a lot of my designs, as well. Lower tech, but higher concept.

You speak like these places are the worst of backwater null sec or some planet in Molden Heath that's been bombarded so many times there's not running water and power. Gods. This is the Federation. Cellular regen and even something like an MRI are not beyond the capability of even Gamma cities to maintain and keep running. As for AIMEDs, do you propose to draft doctors and nurses and send them instead? Good luck.

No, what is happening is that you (maybe not you specifically, but you in the general sense) have no idea how medicine works, made your proposal with such lack of knowledge, and now double down to avoid being seen as incorrect. Normally, I don't give a flying ****. Except in medicine, when you don't know what you're doing, people die. I've had enough of the Imperial medical establishment being class A fuckups. (One Amarr doctor induced a coma in a patient for absolutely no ******* reason.) Admit you're ******* wrong and amend your ******* list and stop whining that "this is effective" or "our list includes but not limited to." Ask for cellular regens, ask for AIMEDs, ask for nanite scrubs. You specifically included NSAIDs, but don't ask for an MRI? SSRIs but not TCMCs (which are far more effective for the treatment of mental illnesses, esp in a place that doesn't have infrastructure for effective therapy).

Either you're actually trying to help people, in which case check your ******* egos, or you're trying to just virtue signal, in which case just shut up.

The moment you actually wish to have a progressive conversation, I'll be happy to talk. Until then, my answer stands as given.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#28 - 2016-12-06 18:37:00 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:
What would also be beneficial, in my opinion, would be some open-source, DRM-free, blueprints for various medical machinery, to allow the people to help themselves, using the resources and skills of the local communities to build and maintain a higher standard of machine than they might otherwise have access to.

You see, in a lot of cases, hospital machinery comes with all sorts of financial strings attached - maintenance contracts, "donations" of equipment with secret clauses to purchase certain pharmaceuticals in return, and so on. The equipment suppliers know what they're doing, and will often offer a discount on the capital cost of purchasing a device, and have inflated prices on the consumables used by said device. A scanner device for uncommon conditions that results in a squeeze on the budget for supplies needed for more general medicine, is not an ideal situation.

So, keep that in mind.

I very much like this idea.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Ameriya
Doomheim
#29 - 2016-12-06 21:04:09 UTC
Vizage wrote:
Quote:
which may include but is not limited to


This conversation shouldn't even have started if this line was properly read...

Honestly this just seems like some lame attempt to seek relevance because something having to do with ones field is the topic of discussion.

Sadly it could have been done in an entirely more productive way, but I guess sometimes people prefer a dramatic statement over a sensible one.

Oh well.


I am sure that if I send out invitations for my New Years Orgy and say that our activity list may include but is not limited to:

  • Alcohol
  • Kinky Sex
  • Drug Use
  • Actual Human Sacrifice

People will have something to say about it. Even if I point out that it's just a possibility, but doesn't have to happen.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#30 - 2016-12-06 21:47:08 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
Vizage wrote:
Quote:
which may include but is not limited to


This conversation shouldn't even have started if this line was properly read...

Honestly this just seems like some lame attempt to seek relevance because something having to do with ones field is the topic of discussion.

Sadly it could have been done in an entirely more productive way, but I guess sometimes people prefer a dramatic statement over a sensible one.

Oh well.


I am sure that if I send out invitations for my New Years Orgy and say that our activity list may include but is not limited to:

  • Alcohol
  • Kinky Sex
  • Drug Use
  • Actual Human Sacrifice

People will have something to say about it. Even if I point out that it's just a possibility, but doesn't have to happen.



The fact that you think "Having something to say about it" is what just happened here is mildly depressing.

Whats really depressing about this however is that a trained doctor such as yourself could have been a really insightful resource for this (maybe you still are?) But given how rudely you decided to respond, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone from the Assembly skipped out on the opportunity for a meeting with you.
Ameriya
Doomheim
#31 - 2016-12-06 22:34:00 UTC
I have to keep up my profession's reputation for arrogance somehow.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#32 - 2016-12-07 00:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Well, that just lowered my opinion of Minmatar medicine.


The Minmatar are never the leaders of medicine. You will be surprised to hear that in some places 'medicine' means 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot'.

Thankfully not as common as they used to be.

Other than that, the actual medical professionals are still all about getting down and dirty because, well, the budget isn't exactly bountiful. No cellular regens. MRIs exist side by side with X-Rays for redundancy reasons. Scalpels and anaesthetics are still commonly used. TCMCs? Suggest that to the staff and expect to be strapped to the operating table yourself. Nanomedical patches? That's a pretty recent thing and only shows up in the core worlds. Border worlds still use needles and alcohol swabs. What we do have in sufficient quantities are AIMEDs, because the factories do manufacture these in mass quantities.



Excuse me, but what the frell is this dren?

Minmatar might not be leaders in medicine but they're also not living several thousands of years in the past either. These "some places" certainly can and probably exist, but they must be in the fringest of the fringe worlds or otherwise almost without any other basic necessities as well. My home planet in Molden Heath - which by many standards is regarded as a grossly underdeveloped region - had relatively highly advanced hospitals and medical centers. Sure, delivery of the most advanced technology wasn't always guaranteed and quality of equipment started to decline the further you got from the capitol, but I assure you nobody relied on medicinal herbs and certainly not "chanting to spirits" for actual medicine.

All modern medicinal technologies were available (including transcranial microcontrollers), but due to remoteness they were at a relative premium and reserved only for emergencies and for those in otherwise greatest need.
If you've ever noticed the scar on my face and wondered why it is there, that's the cause - it was stitched up and the first antibiotic I received didn't completely do its job due to resistant bacteria, so the wound healed slowly enough to cause a noticeable scar. They could have perhaps used more advanced technology for more rapid and effective healing, but as I wasn't in danger of dying from it, they didn't.

So if this planet on the border of a low-security system had access to this level of medicinal technology, admittedly in limited quantities, then I refuse to believe the situation is any worse anywhere else in high-security space.


So called low sec frontier worlds and frontier medicine are a different thing entirely, so apologies if that is what you were discussing - but the way you addressed Ameriya made me think you equated this to all of Minmatar space.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-12-07 01:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Teinyhr wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ameriya wrote:
Well, that just lowered my opinion of Minmatar medicine.


The Minmatar are never the leaders of medicine. You will be surprised to hear that in some places 'medicine' means 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot'.

Thankfully not as common as they used to be.

Other than that, the actual medical professionals are still all about getting down and dirty because, well, the budget isn't exactly bountiful. No cellular regens. MRIs exist side by side with X-Rays for redundancy reasons. Scalpels and anaesthetics are still commonly used. TCMCs? Suggest that to the staff and expect to be strapped to the operating table yourself. Nanomedical patches? That's a pretty recent thing and only shows up in the core worlds. Border worlds still use needles and alcohol swabs. What we do have in sufficient quantities are AIMEDs, because the factories do manufacture these in mass quantities.



Excuse me, but what the frell is this dren?

Minmatar might not be leaders in medicine but they're also not living several thousands of years in the past either. These "some places" certainly can and probably exist, but they must be in the fringest of the fringe worlds or otherwise almost without any other basic necessities as well. My home planet in Molden Heath - which by many standards is regarded as a grossly underdeveloped region - had relatively highly advanced hospitals and medical centers. Sure, delivery of the most advanced technology wasn't always guaranteed and quality of equipment started to decline the further you got from the capitol, but I assure you nobody relied on medicinal herbs and certainly not "chanting to spirits" for actual medicine.

All modern medicinal technologies were available (including transcranial microcontrollers), but due to remoteness they were at a relative premium and reserved only for emergencies and for those in otherwise greatest need.
If you've ever noticed the scar on my face and wondered why it is there, that's the cause - it was stitched up and the first antibiotic I received didn't completely do its job due to resistant bacteria, so the wound healed slowly enough to cause a noticeable scar. They could have perhaps used more advanced technology for more rapid and effective healing, but as I wasn't in danger of dying from it, they didn't.

So if this planet on the border of a low-security system had access to this level of medicinal technology, admittedly in limited quantities, then I refuse to believe the situation is any worse anywhere else in high-security space.


So called low sec frontier worlds and frontier medicine are a different thing entirely, so apologies if that is what you were discussing - but the way you addressed Ameriya made me think you equated this to all of Minmatar space.


Did you read the rest of my statements or did you just read the first paragraph and fly off the handle? I did mention that the Minmatar regions do use technology such as MRIs and AIMEDs, but the real top end stuff such as nanomedical patches (you know, those patches that actually administer nanometer-scale drugs into the body system via the skin at a timely manner) are either restricted in availability or not available entirely. Heck, unlike in the Federation the only prosthetics we do have available are all mechanical prosthetics. Regrowing entire limbs? Not available. Thankfully the Republic's advances in all things mechanical and nanotechnological (just not so much in the medical field) ensured that these are top grade mechanical prosthetics that function just as well as the original (or better depending on how much money one is willing to spend).

And if you insinuate TCMCs are used for treating mental illnesses in Minmatar space, clearly you haven't tried discussing TCMCs with the local neurologists and psychologists. They generally dislike the usage of these microcontrollers due to the association of TCMCs with the control of slave populations in some segments of Amarr space. Yes, we as a race still haven't moved past that whole slavery thing. Bring up Amarr adherent freemen and expect spittles to fly. Bring up TCMCs and they will strap you to the operating table for even bringing it up.

Also, don't even pretend that 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot' is no longer practised. We still see that nonsense in the outlying populated areas and in the slums.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#34 - 2016-12-07 01:44:19 UTC
Ameriya wrote:
I have to keep up my profession's reputation for arrogance somehow.

What a ****** excuse for a ****** way to behave. Moving on.



I can sympathize with the concern of VA delegates who wish to improve the standard of living for Delta cities in the Federation. I am sure I-RED can provide high-grade TCMC's for medical uses in bulk at a reduced cost in an effort to support this endeavor.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#35 - 2016-12-07 03:10:22 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Did you read the rest of my statements or did you just read the first paragraph and fly off the handle? I did mention that the Minmatar regions do use technology such as MRIs and AIMEDs, but the real top end stuff such as nanomedical patches (you know, those patches that actually administer nanometer-scale drugs into the body system via the skin at a timely manner) are either restricted in availability or not available entirely. Heck, unlike in the Federation the only prosthetics we do have available are all mechanical prosthetics. Regrowing entire limbs? Not available. Thankfully the Republic's advances in all things mechanical and nanotechnological (just not so much in the medical field) ensured that these are top grade mechanical prosthetics that function just as well as the original (or better depending on how much money one is willing to spend).

And if you insinuate TCMCs are used for treating mental illnesses in Minmatar space, clearly you haven't tried discussing TCMCs with the local neurologists and psychologists. They generally dislike the usage of these microcontrollers due to the association of TCMCs with the control of slave populations in some segments of Amarr space. Yes, we as a race still haven't moved past that whole slavery thing. Bring up Amarr adherent freemen and expect spittles to fly. Bring up TCMCs and they will strap you to the operating table for even bringing it up.

Also, don't even pretend that 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot' is no longer practised. We still see that nonsense in the outlying populated areas and in the slums.


I've read all of your statements in this thread, rest assured. As such, your insistence on the inferiority of the Republics capability to care for its citizens and lackluster medicinal research is quite astonishing. One of the most well known and successfull Minmatar corporations - Eifyr and Co. - is a cybernetics and biochemical research firm for crying out loud!

I don't claim to be an expert on all things medical and frankly all I can bring with me is anecdotal evidence, so I have no idea if Minmatar medical facilities can regrow limbs or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can at least in the most developed regions. As for TCMC's, they were used to treat catatonic patients, exactly what they were developed for. I remember the first patient being treated with one being huge news, but I was about ten at the time so I don't recall much more than that.

Look, your claims would make more sense to me if Minmatar had to produce every single thing by themselves, but are you really going to tell me that in this day and age of interstellar commerce you can't simply ... buy more advanced equipment from those who have them..? Any developed world should be able to afford high quality medical care facilities, at least one, like our planet did.

I'm not pretending herbal remedies or chanting is not practiced. I just dispute your claim on how prevalent it is. And to reiterate, I don't believe it is common. At all. Again, where I lived my youth, many would consider a backwater, but people hadn't suddenly forgotten about modern technology and what it could do. If people tried to ask spirits for help, they were truly bereft of hope and any other means.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#36 - 2016-12-07 03:12:17 UTC
Don't know what he's playing at, but I think he just likes to be that rugged underdog or something. I don't recognize any of his claims from my own time among the Tribes.
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#37 - 2016-12-07 04:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsavius
This isn't really related to the quality and availability of medical equipment and supplies in Federal Delta cities, but since you all seem so vehement to discuss the topic....I think some of you seriously underestimate the value of herbal medicine despite the plethora of research available to suggest its relevance and effectiveness, to a degree. I suppose, then, we could argue what type of herbal medicine each of us is arguing for. But the nutritional benefits of certain plants is well understood among the scientific community. Such examples include ginger and turmeric, whose chemical makeup influences human molecular processes in beneficial ways that are well known. Furthermore, the ability of the placebo effect to alter chemical processes in the body is much stronger than you might think.

Anyway, going back to quality and availability of medical equipment and supplies in Federal Delta cities...

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2016-12-07 04:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Teinyhr wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Did you read the rest of my statements or did you just read the first paragraph and fly off the handle? I did mention that the Minmatar regions do use technology such as MRIs and AIMEDs, but the real top end stuff such as nanomedical patches (you know, those patches that actually administer nanometer-scale drugs into the body system via the skin at a timely manner) are either restricted in availability or not available entirely. Heck, unlike in the Federation the only prosthetics we do have available are all mechanical prosthetics. Regrowing entire limbs? Not available. Thankfully the Republic's advances in all things mechanical and nanotechnological (just not so much in the medical field) ensured that these are top grade mechanical prosthetics that function just as well as the original (or better depending on how much money one is willing to spend).

And if you insinuate TCMCs are used for treating mental illnesses in Minmatar space, clearly you haven't tried discussing TCMCs with the local neurologists and psychologists. They generally dislike the usage of these microcontrollers due to the association of TCMCs with the control of slave populations in some segments of Amarr space. Yes, we as a race still haven't moved past that whole slavery thing. Bring up Amarr adherent freemen and expect spittles to fly. Bring up TCMCs and they will strap you to the operating table for even bringing it up.

Also, don't even pretend that 'herbal remedies' and 'burn incense and chant to nature spirits alot' is no longer practised. We still see that nonsense in the outlying populated areas and in the slums.


I've read all of your statements in this thread, rest assured. As such, your insistence on the inferiority of the Republics capability to care for its citizens and lackluster medicinal research is quite astonishing. One of the most well known and successfull Minmatar corporations - Eifyr and Co. - is a cybernetics and biochemical research firm for crying out loud!

I don't claim to be an expert on all things medical and frankly all I can bring with me is anecdotal evidence, so I have no idea if Minmatar medical facilities can regrow limbs or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can at least in the most developed regions. As for TCMC's, they were used to treat catatonic patients, exactly what they were developed for. I remember the first patient being treated with one being huge news, but I was about ten at the time so I don't recall much more than that.

Look, your claims would make more sense to me if Minmatar had to produce every single thing by themselves, but are you really going to tell me that in this day and age of interstellar commerce you can't simply ... buy more advanced equipment from those who have them..? Any developed world should be able to afford high quality medical care facilities, at least one, like our planet did.

I'm not pretending herbal remedies or chanting is not practiced. I just dispute your claim on how prevalent it is. And to reiterate, I don't believe it is common. At all. Again, where I lived my youth, many would consider a backwater, but people hadn't suddenly forgotten about modern technology and what it could do. If people tried to ask spirits for help, they were truly bereft of hope and any other means.


I'm not saying that our medical facilities are the absolute worst, I'm saying that they are worse than the Federation and many of the things common there is uncommon in Minmatar space, and that the availability of some of the better facilities isn't ubiquitous even in core worlds.

For example, it is far more common for our surgeons to operate by hand than use any kind of high tech devices.

Also note that I mention that the more dubious remedies are practiced in 'some places', not 'majority of the place'.

And remember that the Republic's economy is *recovering* but isn't 'prosperous' at this point of time, so she isn't importing vast numbers of auto-surgeons or nano-scrubbers. What is imported isn't evenly distributed, even in the core worlds. Also, remember that the Republic, or rather, the Minmatar as a people still have this mentality of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it', hence the surgery-by-hand rather than the use of said auto-surgeons. The Republic medical professionals are still capable of treating the Minmatar ill, but they tend to do so with more antiquated means, at least by Federation standards. Adequate, true, just not as impressive as what the Feds are capable of. At least we have AIMEDs everywhere in the core worlds and in half the border world clinics I had visited (being produced within Republic borders and the generous subsidies applied on these AIMEDs had much to do with it).

Also, things had changed since that news with the TCMC. After the Amarr showed us what they can do with the TCMCs, opinions had gone south. TCMC now has a stigma attached to it. It's available, likely used as the absolute last resort in some places, but the opinions on the chips are currently quite low.

I also recall seeing all those high-grade mechanical prosthetics, prosthetic control chips, faculty enhancer chips and many of our pharmaceutical products carrying the Eifyr and Co. name. I haven't yet seen a nanomedical patch that isn't imported from beyond Republic borders.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#39 - 2016-12-07 04:39:51 UTC
I'm still not sure what he's talking about and I've seen just as much of the same places as he has.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#40 - 2016-12-07 13:22:25 UTC
Ameriya wrote:

I am sure that if I send out invitations for my New Years Orgy and say that our activity list may include but is not limited to:

  • Alcohol
  • Kinky Sex
  • Drug Use
  • Actual Human Sacrifice

People will have something to say about it. Even if I point out that it's just a possibility, but doesn't have to happen.

Remove the last point from the activity list, and I am sure many would attend, not only talk about realization of this idea.