Player Features and Ideas Discussion

this.... this guy does know you can set region wide buy orders right?.....right?


i mean i would hate to think he wrote that ramble of a post for no reason buuuut

Correct a region buy order often will spawn many locations.

Multiply this effect 13 years x every region.

X hundreds of goods.

Supply side limited selling to 305x orders is well for myself.

Likely limited to a small fraction of a decimal place under 1% of inventory.

I can put to a sell order.

You can sell the stuff to the region buys that it originated from.

From / To others.

Note: with market Citadels now implemented

I have stopped placing region / multi jump buy orders for now.

Accept in the Citadel region for now.

And contracted to the 5x trade hubs.

"but an item can only be in one location" sort of ...

For example : buy tritanium at 8 isk a unit in 1 region wide order at 5 billion units and watch the order fill.

you will see you can indeed have the same item at every location at the same time but do not have the

ability to create enough sell orders to list it.

Buy minerals in 10x regions like that

you find 10x buy orders can easy spawn the "need" for thousands of sell orders.

Or the I don't care if my assets look like a list of all the stations.

Assets becoming locked this way is fine.

Until you toss in Asset recovery fees + variables like broker + Tax fee and access.

Region / multi jump buy order risk spikes sharply toward the buyer.

This results in low or near zero buy prices making the 5x Trade hubs even moor attractive.

To me as a trader.

this will not do that. traders will always go where the trades are. Only way to stop that is to add artificial push/pull mechanics and we don't need devs hands mucking up the pie that is our player run market

The problem in a nutshell is that we have some three thousand stations in highsec, and nearly that many in lowsec. Meanwhile, we are busy adding new player built stations as well at a remarkable rate. Disconcertingly, but entirely logically, the number of stations that represent places to source a reasonably priced and complete fit for a ship is fairly small. You can see the list over at Eve Market Data's Station Rank Page. However, I believe we are already familiar with the big five.

Five out of five thousand is a dismal ratio. Jita will always be number one, but I'd like to see an environment in which at least fifty hubs exist that are serviceable for the purpose of efficiently fitting a ship.

Mathematically, the problem is not enough market orders per player. Of course, if we just gave people more of the same kinds of orders, most sell orders would still be placed in hubs. If we spread out the some three hundred thousand or so sell orders across all stations, that would only be about sixty orders per station, which is not nearly enough. We need at least as much as a hundred times that many to make many more stations be as useful as a typical alliance hub is today. I think we could settle for just ten to thirty times as many distributed market orders.

It might be reasonable for CCP to reduce the number of stations in existence. I don't think that accomplishes much by itself, and the process would be arduous. Another thing they might consider is that their players might feel a bit more satisfied if the markets of the new structures they build actually do become populated with more than just mainly offshored buy orders.

Some traders will go where the trades already are. Manufacturers though are a different matter. Manufacturers like manufacturing because :mmo: logic. Industrialists will setup shop, then radiate out until they hit their personal comfort level. Hell, they might even find good margins in the process.

Then get your lazy bottom working and move stuff to these places or get manufacturers produce for you in certain places so that you can sell stuff there. The problem is not "not enough orders per player", the problems are that people -- rightfully and logically so -- want a single place where they can buy all the things they want when they want them. Furthermore, there are also not enough people in the game to make more "big hubs" really necessary. If there were a hundred thousand active players, they would disperse more and make big trade in wider areas pick up pace -- but there are not. Those are the the only reasons behind the low number of big hubs.

If you want to change that, do what I told you above. You do not need to change anything at all in terms of skills, you just need to be less lazy. Your suggestion for more orders per player does not help that, it only makes it possible for very few players to monopolize even more of the markets without any benefit on actual market spreading. Actual player interaction and supply (and demand because those also consume things) conglomerate formations, on the other hand, will do change things and make things better in more than just the market gameplay aspect. However, that would require more players to actually want to build things and not just mindlessly destroy them. vOv


A problem that CCP has not fixed in ages. Shows their competence (or rather lack thereof) when it comes to citadels and the "new era". For months now, I cannot check my market orders or contracts that I have running in citadels and whenever EVEMon tells me that a market order has run out or a contract was finished, I have to use the insufficient ingame "tools" to laboriously figure what is going on.

Then do that. However, keep in mind that no one in their right mind is going to buy pre-built construction components for T2 ships or citadels and structures if they are more expensive than Jita, because even in Jita you lose double digit percent of profits compared to building them yourself.

And if the items are sold for much lower than Jita... someone could just buy them and transport them to Jita for a profit. 'cause that's where everyone else will be.

Where are these new "hubs" again?

--Gadget

I am definitely not in favor of any sort of magic teleportation mechanics. That would suppress growth in opportunities for new interstation station trading as well as the objective of getting more traders in space.

If I recall correctly, there are some six hundredish T2 modules, including ammo. I recall that I tried to make a list of all the critical pvp modules for subcaps at some point. Not all of them are essential, but usually it's T2 modules that get stocked in a null or lowsec player hub before most other commodities. Industrialists are usually tied to hubs, and I don't really see that changing soon. Player hubs seem usually be sub 3k market orders. I consider that a good hub for basic fits for end consumers.

As you say, it's not going to have everything, much less have most things competitively priced. Meta goods are particularly nefarious to keep stocked in my experience. You can only source those in quantity in primary hubs and even then it's slow unless you want to lose your shirt. Nothing I've suggested here will plausibly alter that, unless CCP gets a wild hair and introduces meta invention. Many moons ago, and with the aid of popular trader software, I maxed out orders across a couple of characters to help support a particular "new player friendly" alliance's need for non-T2 goods. That's probably why I had to take another vacation after a few months. It was a pretty good operation with few errors, and I only sacrified a few billion isk in the process. A small price to pay to bring the joy of pvp to a new generation.

T2 goods were usually competitively priced even before I got involved, as they are usually the first thing that would get stocked, and the naturally the first category of goods that would become competitively priced. T2 fittings are mainstream because most players hit the plateau to fit and afford them fairly quickly, they can be acquired quickly and reliably, and they are regarded by pvpers as adequate for most situations. Doctrine makers are incentivized to embrace them due to moon holdings naturally. But I digress.

I will attempt to restate my goal as concisely and clearly as possible since it seems to have inspired some unanticipated obfuscation. I would like for all of us to be able to be able to place a small number of sell orders in any station with no cap on the total number of "localized" market orders that we have, provided we have the salable goods located in that station in advance. These would not count against the existing 305 active "global" market orders maximum until you go above the proposed per-station "localized" or free-order limit.

In my rosy understanding of the situation, I imagine players actually visiting each of those stations with goods in tow. However, yes, there are such things as remote market skills, and likely players could make use of contracts to have goods delivered by other players. I see nothing awry with that. They could probably even use large area buy orders to some greater effect, but I think that would be unwieldy for most players. Personally, I doubt I would try to setup kiosks in more than one region per character due to my own personal laziness, but I expect there are some special folks who are much more ambitious than that. I embrace a scenario where they are free to trade until their fingers mutiny, because that is the kind of beautiful thing that makes my little capitalist heart overflow its ledgers.

Nothing wrong with that. Trade tends to erode market failures.

I don't know where the minor-hubs would be. Probably wherever players tend to gather a little more often. If Jita is a Yule tree, the bonus orders would make more of a skirt.

To abuse everyone's good sense with terrible analogies, like molasse or bands of eroded sediment that surround an orogeny. Yeah, that's pretty bad. That stays in for sure.

Realistically though, I think there are a couple of categories of goods that resellers aren't likely to touch. For example, T1 frigates and cruisers. Most manufacturers are aware that it's more efficient to truck in the minerals and build them on site, even without compression. I doubt traders will bother with those, which may give merchandizers some incentive to pad their margins as much as their resident competition will allow. Whether or not that's a good deal is up to the consumer.