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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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M0220H
Ice Fire Warriors
#421 - 2012-01-19 05:43:00 UTC
I am writing in response to the FW article in this post.

To be honest I was a little insulted when I read the notes. It shocks me how little you know about us FW and lowsec pilots. Don't get me wrong I love that you guys are putting forth a effort to fix FW and make this game better and I appreciate it.

Here is a few things I dont like.

0.0 style politics/revenge/spying into FW. Another important addition to this system would be some
real power/consequences for system ownership, such as the elected leaders being able to set things

The thing is people don't join FW to be another cog in the 0.0 alliance machine. We like our independence and our free will to do what the hell we want. Now don't get me wrong i'm fine with someone being elected as a "leader" or given some sort of title. But i feel it would be best used as more as a rally point for people and not someone who gets to manage militia wide assets and all that complicated 0.0 bullshit. It's like your adding all these layers of complications that don't need to be added.



They would like to merge the FW and 0.0 sov system capture mechanics somewhat, but are not happy with either of the current
mechanics.

WE DON'T WANT 0.0

I have been talking to a lot of people recently about FW issues with there not being any point to sov and plexing in fw. My ceo told me what he would do if it was up to him.

1. Get rid of FW mission (don't get mad 0.0 alts)
2. Instead of mission LP give LP out by running plex's, Turning systems and most importantly KILLING the opposite faction.

This is a very simple solution to the sov problem in FW and it would benefit it and this would cause way more fights and activity in FW. This also has a smaller benefit to us fw pilots because it would keep the Isk of the FW LP market in the militias and not be given to outside alts who just farm missions when they arnt in 300 man bs blobs out in 0.0. You would have to participate in fights in militia causing more kills which means more interest from outside pvpers who are looking for kills.

I'm going to stop ranting now.

my last note I would just like to say you should get to know the militias more. your whole FW summit note is written like you want to change FW to game play you think is fun and successful (0.0). We are a wild fire don't try to control us just point us in the right direction. Also not to offend any of the current or past CSM members most of the CSM is a 0.0 controlled council I would like to say I think a lot of people(not just FW) would appreciate if there were a couple spots open for just FW or just Highsec players or any other minority in the game. How do you honestly expect to represent us if you don't know the first thing about us.

Thanks for those who read,

M0220H
Ka Pow Pow Inc.
Adrodius
Old Ass Gamers
#422 - 2012-01-19 05:54:57 UTC
I believe having Faction warfare rechanged and make it more dynamic WOULD increase it's interest. Having us player being the leader and having control of our oppertunities. Making us strong and influense the people in eve, creating our own rules AND systems that people must obey. That comes another interesting part, abut those who doesn't like the system of the WF, they'll create the so called resistance and fight back. And I as the WF leader would please my members so they still keep me in the position by giving them territory/isk. What im trying to say, it opens up new oppertunies that make eve it self more real.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#423 - 2012-01-19 06:07:03 UTC
Since I don't want to poo-poo Scrapyard Bob's low sec idea, without offering a suggestion (perhaps idiotic) of my own, here goes:

How about reconfiguring the distribution of system secs in the Eve universe, so that the low sec systems are much more contiguous and intrusive, separating and isolating the high sec and null sec systems into much smaller pockets? This would force travel through low sec, in order to just get from one place to another.

And, this could include high sec missions - where you might need to traverse through a low sec system in order to get to the mission system. The mission system would still be a high sec system, so you'd be able to refit your ship for PVE before entering the actual mission.

I've also never been particularly fond of the single high-low and low-null pipes between various regions, and this could open it up, allowing for more alternate routes and perhaps less endless gate camping.

Add dynamic system sec to the mix, so that systems drift over time, from high sec to low sec (and vice versa), and low sec to null sec (and vice versa) - just to make it all a bit more chaotic and less static & stagnant.

Story-wise, here's my pitch...

Corcord is going broke from the massive payouts of Incursion and can no longer afford to police empire space effectively - many high sec systems degenerate to low sec, due to increased criminal activity. In a futile effort to retain some control, Concord opts to cheaply expand its sphere of influence, rather than restore order, by converting many null sec systems to Concord-sov low sec systems.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#424 - 2012-01-19 06:23:51 UTC
Yet another insane idea (sorry folks, but I just drank my all-nighter allotment of coffee in under 5 minutes)....

How about adding gate jammers (idea courtesy of Clear Skies 3) to Incursions?

The Sanshas could shutdown various gates, choking traffic, and thus encouraging more players to jump in to crush the Incursion as quickly as possible, if only to restore the normal flow of traffic between systems (and regions, if it takes place in a system such as Colelie in SL and Bei in Metropolis).

Rats could also spawn at the remaining working gates, making it more difficult to simply go around or ignore them.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#425 - 2012-01-19 06:57:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Amelia Diamant wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Amelia Diamant wrote:
My main objection is to being able to be camped in lowsec by one dude in a BC. This could be implemented pretty easily. Though I am sure many people would object to this, it seems pretty good to me C:


If you're running logistics for an alliance, why is a bunch of guys in battlecruisers and frigates scary to you?

Don't you guys defend your supply lines? Don't you have staging POSes specifically to allow freighters to jump in and immediately be swallowed up by the loving comfort of POS shields while under the watchful eye of a sky filled with light/medium batteries?


Actually, I don't do alliance logistics. Black Frog operates in NPC nullsec and lowsec on behalf of...anybody. We aren't jumping into, or out of space that is secure, nor do we have any means or desire to secure it. All we wanna do is get in, and out again. As it is, we charge double for nullsec contracts due to the chance of being camped in by bubbles (a serious waste of our time). But the chance of one dude in a BC or bigger being on a given lowsec undock is larger than a dictor being on a given NPC station (and I speak from vast experience here).

I know our concern is a niche case, but it doesn't change the fact that the spool up change will have no effect on alliance JF pilots (as you say, their routes are generally secure), which means that the primary PURPOSE behind the change (alliance power projection) isn't in play when applied to JFs. Therefore, there is no reason for the change to be applied to JFs.


Yeah, the services provided by BFF are definitely valuable. I'm down for keeping current cyno mechanics for JFs - because it would become almost impossible under the new system.

-Liang


JFs should have never been put in the game in the first place. War is about logistics. Untouchable logistics in Eve is the worst possible situation.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

zero2espect
Space-Brewery-Association
#426 - 2012-01-19 07:06:19 UTC
LOL. 2 groups of geniuses at work here. CSM and CCP.

Let me get this right....the scandal of goon backed super-nerf rolls out and now you guys are scratching your heads wondering why not enough supers are being killed? hahahahahaha. priceless.

thanks to super-nerf scandal, CCP have alienated a core of senior and veteren players, destroyed hundreds of billions of isk of ships and mod value and they wonder why they need a loyalty program - thanks - you can keep what will be the next to useless implants or whatever you're going to through at us.

great to see the csm representing the needs of all players and not just their alliance or preferred style of play.

with regards to faction warfare. here's an idea. instead of asking these clown CSMs how to fix FW why not ask people who are actually in FW..... let me break it down for you. we don't want FW to be like 0.0. we don't want politics. we don't want spais and intrigue. we don't want system sieging mechanics and "calls to arms". we want mechanics that encourage PVP warfare. I know the CSMs and CCP want Alliances into FW but i will say this again...the last thing FW needs is alliances in FW. Every alliance "on a break" will drop into FW to access the best time/reward missions and then superblob the bejeezus out of FW entitities. There are 2 distinct groups in FW at the moment.. The guys in corps looking for PVP and the alts faming FW missions. The best fix for FW would be to remove the missions and reward PVP and system flipping. There should be no need for FW corps to "have to" join an alliance in order to compete - which is what will happen if you allow Alliances into FW. You do know that if wanted FW to be more like 0.0 we could just fly 6jumps and you know, join a 0.0 alliance right?
Amelia Diamant
Perkone
Caldari State
#427 - 2012-01-19 07:31:40 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
JFs should have never been put in the game in the first place. War is about logistics. Untouchable logistics in Eve is the worst possible situation.


The Titanic never should have hit that iceberg, either, but whats done is done. To remove JF now would be ridiculously harmful to the EVE economy, as they are the ONLY reliable and even moderately safe way to move material in low and null.

Besides, JF aren't untouchable even in their current state - each week tens of billions of isk worth in hulls die due to pilot error and the ever inventive tactics of the hisec merc corps. Everyone messes up eventually, you just need to be there are ready when it happens.
Plutonian
Intransigent
#428 - 2012-01-19 08:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Plutonian
Sizeof Void wrote:
Last time I tried to run a mission in low sec (which admittedly was a very long time ago), I found myself flying back to high sec in my pod within 15 minutes - not nearly long enough for me to complete the mission. Doggone low sec pirates are just too good at what they like to do. :)


Missions must change for lowsec. May I introduce the tried-and-true staple of space sims? Ladies and Gentlemen... the PATROL MISSION!!! (cheers, shouts, bra's thrown on stage)

L4 Mission: Destroy {insert target name} and his/her cohorts.

Agent Conversation: I want this sucker dead, but he's hiding in lowsec, so you're going to have to be careful. Last word was he's piloting a {insert T1 frigate type} We've got five different waypoints for you to hit in {lowsec system name}. When you see him, scrap his ship. For god sakes update your clone and be careful, it's lawless territory.

Player has five waypoints in his P&P. He travels to each one until he finds his prey. Then he destroys them. Mission accomplished. Rewards should be comparable to standard level 4 missions, but, as you can see, these are far quicker and offer some security for the mission runner.

The difference (from standard missions) is that CCP must utilize rats which reflect player standard loadout of each ship type. If the Bad Guy is in a Rifter, it should be an AI entity which models the cookie-cutter Rifter a much as possible. The player must fit a scram... the target will attempt to warp out and flee to one of the other waypoints. The number of targets must remain small... the player cannot spend a great deal of time in any one spot or he gets probed out.

The target group should be randomized from a small database of 'rats' which closely resemble player-flown ship types/loadouts. The goal is to replicate the actions and capabilities of standard ship found in lowsec. We're trying to merge PvP and PvE here.

The only technical hurdle I can see for CCP is allowing the mission to be refused by any player not seeking PvP, without any detriment. In other words, if refused it shouldn't count towards the 4 hour standard deal.

Presto. You have missions which are quick, interesting, lucrative, and provide some safety in lowsec without making Empire bears pinatas. You have Empire bears realizing that, if they can kill this rat, they could probably do the same with that Rifter in belt 3-2. People in lowsec, yadda, yadda.


EDIT: Forgot to mention... 'Rats' for this mission should be highly randomized. No player should ever know exactly what resistances/loadout he/she will be facing. Just like in real PvP.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#429 - 2012-01-19 09:08:32 UTC
Tres Farmer wrote:
Cash Stalker wrote:
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh

Cash.. it seems no one has told you yet, but EVE is not the game for you, sorry pal.


I did, but he swore at me, and now I haz a sadfaceBlink

Ni.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#430 - 2012-01-19 09:25:23 UTC
Cash Stalker wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Cash Stalker wrote:
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh



Question: If you are building stuff lets say Zealots for example, on a non pvp server, who is buying them?

Please tell me I am falling for a troll.

lol... please.... nonplayer markets has been around forever. Roll


You're kidding. You come to a game whose main (if not only*) claim to fame is it's player driven economy#, and you want NPC markets? Are you high?

*It's surely not good UI design, fun PvE content, polished gameplay, good graphics, low lag, I could go on.

#All pvp besides civilian weapon noobship duels is economic activity. And conversely, all economic activity is PvP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#431 - 2012-01-19 10:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
Sizeof Void wrote:
... And, this could include high sec missions - where you might need to traverse through a low sec system in order to get to the mission system. The mission system would still be a high sec system, so you'd be able to refit your ship for PVE before entering the actual mission.


I would not fly trough or to a lowsec for a 0815 mission. Nor the most other PvE-Players would do. The whole "bring more missions into lowsec" is nonsense. A PvE'er will not risk his assets for one marginal mission with little bounty and mission payout.

I fly some storyline missions in lowsec. But absolute no normal mission. Why should I? What? Such a change would only bring more annoyance to missionrunner - but no further missionrunner into lowsec. Smile
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#432 - 2012-01-19 11:07:49 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
The concern expressed by the CSM seems to be limited to the ability of a carrier/super force to project power all the way across the EVE universe in minutes. It does not sound like the issue they're concerned with is moving corp members' crap after the fact.


On the trade side of things, there's the projection of economic force from Jita straight into the heart of alliance territory, with no effort required. There is no reason to trade and manufacture in null sec when you can just haul a freighter load of stuff in perfect safety within hours: "Hey guys, I'm doing a Jita run, who wants stuff?" three hours later: "Hey guys, here's your stuff!"

Materiel logistics is too easy. The loss of a super cap is measured in ISK only. They don't care about time because there will be two or three ships in the oven to replace each one that is lost in this coming fight. We'll know that materiel logistics (i.e.: the non-pew-pew PvP side of the game) is hard enough when people in alliances are actually concerned about collecting all the tritanium in a hauler spawn before it evaporates, and when miners will actively mine Veldspar because the tritanium is worth mining.

Until that time, logistics is too easy. That a jump freighter doesn't need to be escorted indicates that interdicting supply lines is either too hard, or ineffectual for the effort of destroying/capturing the freighter.

The "farms and fields" of null sec will have no relevance if logistics is too easy. There needs to be a reason for people to produce resources locally, and that reason needs to be more than "it's worth more ISK than stuff in hisec".

The stuff that comes to null sec from hisec would end up being high value, low volume items such as implants, boosters, high-meta modules, data cores: the stuff that is traded freely in hisec that is produced in hisec.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Kamuria
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#433 - 2012-01-19 11:10:02 UTC
Quote:

Do any of the folks who have this issue have a bug report # for me? I will follow up with CCP tomorrow and see what I can do.



Here's a few bug report ID on sound problems. Some are in double due to the lack of response.

121342 (Happening since Incarna 1.0)
121105
114361 (Happening since Incarna 1.0)
107626 (bug report says it has been fixed, not it hasn't)
96903 (might be still happening, haven't played much these days)
91195
90806
89182
80745
74356
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#434 - 2012-01-19 11:11:08 UTC
zero2espect wrote:
thanks to super-nerf scandal, CCP have alienated a core of senior and veteren players, destroyed hundreds of billions of isk of ships and mod value and they wonder why they need a loyalty program - thanks - you can keep what will be the next to useless implants or whatever you're going to through at us.


You're the one who trained into FOTM which was overpowered super capitals, which everyone knew were overpowered and due for a nerf at some point.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#435 - 2012-01-19 11:30:55 UTC
Kamuria wrote:
Quote:

Do any of the folks who have this issue have a bug report # for me? I will follow up with CCP tomorrow and see what I can do.



Here's a few bug report ID on sound problems. Some are in double due to the lack of response.

121342 (Happening since Incarna 1.0)
121105
114361 (Happening since Incarna 1.0)
107626 (bug report says it has been fixed, not it hasn't)
96903 (might be still happening, haven't played much these days)
91195
90806
89182
80745
74356



Giggle. You do not need to say anything more. I also have done several bug reports. The most of them where unanswered due lack of interest or where answered with absolute no knowledge of the game mechanics.
See here: KLICK
M0220H
Ice Fire Warriors
#436 - 2012-01-19 11:59:37 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Why does the CSM feel lowsec enjoyment is tied to PVE rewards? Lowsec enjoyment is all about PVP, not PVE, and there is lots of it to be found, if you know where to look.


In order to support predators, you need prey. In order to support prey, you need abundant food for them to graze upon, enough that the occasional loss to predation is acceptable.

And getting that balance right, especially given that lowsec is squeezed from both sides by highsec and nullsec, can be very difficult.

A lot of hisec PI people, for example, are sufficiently risk-adverse that they won't try PI in lowsec, even though it can be quite profitable and reasonably low-risk. For them, the risk/reward just isn't there; they put a higher value on a loss than they do a gain.


You make it sound like all your pvp is petty pve pilot ganks......most of my kills over the past 2 years have been from other low sec PVPers.... and if that's you outlook on pvp I feel bad for you.... Don't get me wrong ganking a care bear is fun every once in the while but really whats the challenge in that? most lowsec pilots dont need carebears to pvp(SHOCKING)... there are plenty of pirate corps, role players and FW pilots active in low sec to supply kills...
Amelia Diamant
Perkone
Caldari State
#437 - 2012-01-19 12:11:49 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Materiel logistics is too easy. The loss of a super cap is measured in ISK only. They don't care about time because there will be two or three ships in the oven to replace each one that is lost in this coming fight. We'll know that materiel logistics (i.e.: the non-pew-pew PvP side of the game) is hard enough when people in alliances are actually concerned about collecting all the tritanium in a hauler spawn before it evaporates, and when miners will actively mine Veldspar because the tritanium is worth mining.


This is a pipe-dream. The level of difficulty for logistics that you are proposing is effectively a disconnect between the economies of hisec and nullsec (and between regions of nullsec too, so truly it would shatter the economy rather than merely divide it). I don't even want to speculate on the effect that would have on the game economies health over all - I am simply not qualified. But I would wager good money that it would not be a positive change.

Manufacturing will always be done primarily in hisec. The kind of players who enjoy spreadsheets tend to gravitate toward the security and convenience hisec provides. You can make logistics harder, but nullsec blocs will always find a way....right up until the point that you are suggesting, the shattering of the unified economy. I firmly believe CCP would never let things go so far.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#438 - 2012-01-19 12:19:03 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:

I would not fly trough or to a lowsec for a 0815 mission. Nor the most other PvE-Players would do. The whole "bring more missions into lowsec" is nonsense. A PvE'er will not risk his assets for one marginal mission with little bounty and mission payout.

I fly some storyline missions in lowsec. But absolute no normal mission. Why should I? What? Such a change would only bring more annoyance to missionrunner - but no further missionrunner into lowsec. Smile

Currently, this is true. But, perhaps not if we change the game map and the mission running mechanics.

Under my suggestion, you would no longer be surrounded by dozens of connected high sec systems; rather, each small pocket of high sec would be surrounded by low sec systems.

L4 agents would only send you to missions located in other high sec pockets, requiring you to travel through low sec to get there. The player would need to fit for PVP for the trip, then be able to refit for PVE when the mission location - which would be a high sec system - is reached. This gets around the current problem of trying to fit a PVP/PVE ship to solo missions in low sec.

L1-L3 agents could still give you missions located within your current pocket of high sec. So, if you are content to stay within your pocket - which might now only consist of 2-4 high sec systems - you can just run the lower value missions.

But, please note that this is just a suggestion - feel free to offer up your own ideas.

For the record, I also like Plutonian's suggestion to change the nature of low sec missions to something which is faster, target-oriented, and more PVP-like.

Maybe agents could issue mission bounties on actual active players with criminal status? That might be an entertaining change to the broken bounty system.
Bent Barrel
#439 - 2012-01-19 12:24:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Comments:
- Please don't implement some kind of color coded system to get information across in PVP. There are a non-trivial number of color blind people playing Eve that would suddenly be at a MASSIVE disadvantage in PVP.
- It sounds like the intention is to make Low Sec == FW. If you do this, please don't forget pirates. We were here first. If nothing else, bring pirate factions into the FW with missions like "Get 20 kills in region X".
- I am very glad to hear that you're hesitant to overboost AFs by giving them an extra slot. I am equally glad to know that the second mid is mandatory.
- Please don't mess up WH space. Its one of the few bastions of actual small gang warfare and WH stabilizers would really mess with that.
- Please fix POS living, and allow Rorqual clone bays to work in WH space. PLEASE.

Hmm, that's probably a good start. :)

-Liang

Ed: Oh, I'm super stoked to hear plans of buffing T1 frigs/cruisers and command ships. While you're at it please look at all ships that have the reputation for being total rubbish or being impossible to properly fit.

Also the Drake nerf is probably not necessary but I won't fight against it too much.


Hmm I'd like CCP to make the Pirate NPC factions take part in FW as well in their respective regions. Requirements would be a certain security status and standing towards the NPC pirate faction. This way lowsec pirates can go full mercenary (no ties) or NPC faction alligned that gives them an actual ingame purpose for their pirate actions. This will also make some of the empire FW players enter NPC zerosec regions for FW purposes :-)))) We get a continuos gradient from high to zerosec.
Bent Barrel
#440 - 2012-01-19 12:37:27 UTC
long time ago on a different account I lived in IAC space ... it was quite fun and interesting to make hauler runs with stuff from highsec down to our systems. then came carriers and dreads as jump drive ships and were used for logistics. hauler runs stopped. however since the jump drive ships had limited cargo, freighter runs with escorts were done from time to time.

then came jump freighters and all the fun described above stopped.

remove jump freighters or make them only jump between jump bridges so that they can move a lot of things inside zerosec but not further. supply lines should matter again.