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Time for the CSM to be Old Yellered

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KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-12-05 14:35:03 UTC
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Bobmon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2016-12-05 16:13:44 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
mkint
#23 - 2016-12-05 19:40:55 UTC
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#24 - 2016-12-05 20:07:12 UTC
mkint wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.


Why is it a huge problem? We're here to represent the community, and the community isn't just here, it's a sprawling mess of people on many different platforms that we're expected to keep up with. I think we've proven that we do read these forums enough to be active, but much like those other formats of discussion I personally prefer to observe than actively guide the discussion here.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#25 - 2016-12-05 20:07:58 UTC
mkint wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.



The CSM doesn't discuss developing business though.

And our own communications with CCP happen on the official channels (hipchat and their internal wiki).

_our_ discussions with CCP's customers (that's all of you) happen where ever those customers talk. Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
mkint
#26 - 2016-12-05 20:18:44 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mkint wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.



The CSM doesn't discuss developing business though.

And our own communications with CCP happen on the official channels (hipchat and their internal wiki).

_our_ discussions with CCP's customers (that's all of you) happen where ever those customers talk. Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake when only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#27 - 2016-12-05 20:21:10 UTC
mkint wrote:
only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


Please provide an example of this.
mkint
#28 - 2016-12-05 20:33:26 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:
mkint wrote:
only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


Please provide an example of this.

See it all the time over the years, at least with CCP. As posted earlier in the thread, CSM only posts about once a week at best. Most commonly with CCP we'll see feedback threads for sisi or upcoming features where players will bring up an issue and CCP says "well, we asked reddit/twitter/etc, and they disagree, so we're not going to make any changes based on your feedback." And then it inevitably ends up being a big issue. Or a player will say "why didn't you tell us about this important thing?" and CCP responds "well, we tweeted it, follow us on this other 3rd party communications platform." Personally, it also bugs me when news is announced at a gathering/event, and then no formal recap until months later when finally there's a dev blog 3 days before it goes live, but at least that's more or less an *official* channel. It's often a casual "oh, yeah, so I was messing around on reddit..." by a dev making his first post to the forums in months or years.

Maybe I notice it more because it irritates me especially that CCP doesn't seem to give 2 greasy squirts about their own communications platform. That at most they view it as an unfortunate obligation.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#29 - 2016-12-05 20:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin'taan
mkint wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:
mkint wrote:
only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


Please provide an example of this.

See it all the time over the years, at least with CCP. .


Try as I might I don't have the powers of mind control over CCP so I can't change their behaviour patterns. Whilst I would like them to write more devblogs, they're expected to be the fonts of all knowledge and stats, over an announcement that "this is something we're thinking of". All of what CCP changes is covered in the Patch notes as well, which you are obviously able to read from an official source :)

EDIT: Also this thread isn't about CCP, it's specifically about the CSM, so I re-iterate my point. Provide an example of something you feel we didn't bring up at the summit or with CCP in general that was talked about in these forums and no-where else.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#30 - 2016-12-05 22:14:29 UTC
mkint wrote:

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.


A major goal of the CSM is to facilitate communication between the playerbase and CCP. How they feel they should go about that best is totally up to them. The forums have never been a very effective communication platform, and many of the other services (Reddit, Slack, Twitter) offer certain advantages that obviously work well with a lot of people.

The short of it is, if you want people to respect your communication, then be public, organized, and open to discussion. In my experience the forums often lack these things.

Additionally, most of these guys gained support via these other platforms, or however they reached their constituents. It makes perfect sense they would continue to use those mechanisms to talk with their people.

Simply criticizing the process isn't enough. If you really feel there is another way, then support that better way, hell it worked for Xenuria.

mkint wrote:

I think it's a mistake when only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


There is no goal for one platform to be more listened to than another. I have seen forum posts make big changes, these are often well argued and in the feature and ideas forum.

mkint wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:
mkint wrote:
only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


Please provide an example of this.

See it all the time over the years, at least with CCP. As posted earlier in the thread, CSM only posts about once a week at best. Most commonly with CCP we'll see feedback threads for sisi or upcoming features where players will bring up an issue and CCP says "well, we asked reddit/twitter/etc, and they disagree, so we're not going to make any changes based on your feedback." And then it inevitably ends up being a big issue. Or a player will say "why didn't you tell us about this important thing?" and CCP responds "well, we tweeted it, follow us on this other 3rd party communications platform." Personally, it also bugs me when news is announced at a gathering/event, and then no formal recap until months later when finally there's a dev blog 3 days before it goes live, but at least that's more or less an *official* channel. It's often a casual "oh, yeah, so I was messing around on reddit..." by a dev making his first post to the forums in months or years.

Maybe I notice it more because it irritates me especially that CCP doesn't seem to give 2 greasy squirts about their own communications platform. That at most they view it as an unfortunate obligation.


This is not an example, this is a diversion argument. If you want I can provide a counter example.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Bobmon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2016-12-06 14:34:56 UTC
mkint wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mkint wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.



The CSM doesn't discuss developing business though.

And our own communications with CCP happen on the official channels (hipchat and their internal wiki).

_our_ discussions with CCP's customers (that's all of you) happen where ever those customers talk. Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake when only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


not really as people are welcome to mail me ingame too or confo me etc.

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2016-12-22 10:35:03 UTC
mkint wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mkint wrote:
Bobmon wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
The problem isn't the CSM, it is these forums.

OP has yet to accept that these forums have long stopped being the best way for Devs, CSM and players to interact with one another.
THAT is what he is really angry about. I'm sure his response will come down to "But these forums SHOULD be!"
Well they aren't, throwing a tantrum about it won't change that.

Just like everything else about this game, you either adapt or die.


Thank you! Im sorry but I'm (and most CSMs) logged in daily on:
- Twitter
- Facebook groups
- Tweetfleet Slack channels
- Focus Group slack channels
- Player Discord discussion channels
- Roundtable channels
- our CCP internal channels
- reddit

We talk here activly with players, yes we might not use the forums enough but we deffaintly compensate with other channels :)

In terms of meeting attendance, we are able to rewatch the meetings if we miss them and then we continue the discussion on internal CCP forums. This means that even if you miss it, you can still contribute.

The way I see it, it's a huge problem to have official discussion happen outside of official communication channels. Think about it... you wouldn't get walmart discussing developing business on twitter. That'd be ********.



The CSM doesn't discuss developing business though.

And our own communications with CCP happen on the official channels (hipchat and their internal wiki).

_our_ discussions with CCP's customers (that's all of you) happen where ever those customers talk. Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake when only the people who take part on a particular 3rd party platform are the ones who are listened to, or get news first (or sometimes at all), which happens all the time with EVE and CCP.


During CSM8, people complained that there were too many CSM posts.

In my experience, the communication that people actually want is to be able to have a personal conversation with the CSM of their choice whenever they feel like it. And for that conversation to consist of the CSM telling them only what they want to hear. Anything less than that drives complaints from people upset that the CSM has failed to realize quite how special they are.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2017-01-04 06:44:11 UTC
If the CSM is useless to you, ignore it. If they are as ineffectual as you believe? That will be the end of it

If they are effective then your issue is with what effect they have, right? Run. It is possible for an independent to get elected. Pitch in and talk directly to a CSM or two. Some of them will listen. (I cannot speak for all of them but I KNOW some of then are good reps)

Bottom line is still CCP spends a lot of money on the CSM so THEY perceive a value proved by the fact that they continue to fund it. When the time comes to take CSM out behind the shed it will be CCP's decision and theirs alone.

But thank you for your opinion, even if I do wholeheartedly disagree with it, OP.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Matar Ronin
#34 - 2017-01-15 00:58:41 UTC
I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.

Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.

Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.

I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#35 - 2017-01-15 01:56:32 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.

Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.

Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.

I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.



The _easiest_ way, in most cases, to start a dialogue is to eve mail us. That way you don't need to worry about timing issues.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#36 - 2017-01-15 02:13:23 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.

Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.

Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.

I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.


Then contact us? We do communicate via the forums, but - unless there's a specific topic we're researching for our dialogue with CCP, such as my own roundtable about the NPE - there's no need for us to influence the dialogue around other areas of the forums. If you wish to talk to us directly, you can do so using the in game tools, such as the EvE Mail, or Start Conversation button.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#37 - 2017-01-19 20:23:14 UTC
First I want to say nothing against you personally The Judge. Here are some reasons I am against CSM continuing as it does with the NDA:

The Judge wrote:
...
I'd love to list the things we have discussed at length with CCP that have or haven't made it into the game, or are still works in progress, but you know... that pesky NDA. The community will never know 95% of what the CSM has worked on with CCP, and in all honesty, that's the benefit CCP gets out of it.


Its hard to say you represent the community when they don't even know 95% of what you do. How can the community meaningfully vote when they are in the dark about 95% of what is done? In most democracy voters can find out how their elected officials vote. They meet in public and discuss things in public. They do not meet behind closed doors and submit minutes that at best might indicate who said what but very often just say something was raised and then fail to indicate what each person thought of it. Every thinking person can see democracy does not work if the voters are uninformed. NDA = voters can not be informed what csm is doing.

If CCP gets something out of this ok. But really they should just pick their own focus group instead of this charade.

The majority of votes are from null alliances that just vote for who they are told to vote for. This isn't the csms fault, its that "pesky" nda.


The Judge wrote:
. "We filter out the static of 1000 voices and condense that down to a workable list of concerns and ideas."


As I said above since the NDA it is unclear what you do. It would be great if you published a list of concerns and ideas for each topic of a summit so you could get actual player feedback. Then I might agree you could filter the "static" of 1000 voices. But I have not seen that.

Of course we see Aryth say finding out what is going to happen in the future is good for his coalition. And I am sure it is. Personally, I think it is unfair to give information to select players when they have demonstrated time and again and again that they will use this to their advantage. And I am only talking about the times CCP was able to *prove* this happened. Anyone who has the brain of a hamster should be able to use this information to their advantage without getting caught. Just like Aryth said he would. This is an affront to the core integrity of the game.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#38 - 2017-01-19 20:29:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.

Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.

Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.

I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.



The _easiest_ way, in most cases, to start a dialogue is to eve mail us. That way you don't need to worry about timing issues.



2 problems

1)Its not public.. Believe it or not Politicians often would like to say contradictory things depending on who they are talking to. The public discussion that takes place in a real democracy (as opposed to a government where everything is done in secret under and NDA) prevents that.

2) My experience (and everyone I talked to about evemailing csm) is its a complete waste of time.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2017-01-19 20:33:45 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.

Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.

Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.

I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.


Asking for a principle place for csm to communicate with players is asking way too much. They expect players to read reddit, twitter, their own personal blogs, other peoples blogs, and listen to a variety of podcasts if players are to get even a glimmer of what is going to happen at the summit.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2017-01-19 20:56:19 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?


There should be a central place where supposed voters can find out what csm memebers are doing. This highlights a certain disconnect between csm and the vast majority of players. CSM players probably spend allot of time reading various 3rd party information portals. Most players are much more casual about eve. I recall reading one set of minutes where someone suggested that an event like the Guristas event should only last like 2 weeks! I might not even log on in a 2 week period. I can only hope that CCP understands that CSM members and their opinions are likely quite different than most players.


Steve Ronuken wrote:



You do know that you can't really complain that CCP is listening to a very small subset of players, because they're the players who vote? The franchise is wide open. _Anyone_ can vote. _Anyone_ can run for CSM.


Its silly to have an election when all the work is done in private. See my point above about how truly democratic systems require openness and public access. Thats why no one votes because candidates don't have to say what they will do they just have to say they are the pick of this null alliance. Even if they do claim they will favor something we never know if they actually advocate for it or not. We just get horrible vague minutes from the summits. We have no idea what is said other than that. It is ridiculous to claim this is anything like a normal healthy democratic process. No wonder turnout is so bad.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815