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F2P Restrictions are too great

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Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2016-12-04 10:19:49 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Miha V wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's cute, considering EVE is only 50c a day and all of its expansions are completely free of charge.
Literally all of them.


"50c a day" only if you pay $180 for the year, otherwise $20/month . It is OK if you play the only EvE game and do not have RL! :)
I play at PC also: GW2, World of Warships, TSW, RIFT, Wargame Red Dragon, Warframe... and more. BTW every single developer wants to be payed for his/her job. I am OK with it.
At RL I have to pay for my RC models(MAAC insurance + club) ~$280+/year, bike insurance ~$1000/year, downhill skiing/snowboarding $100+/day per person. Then mortgage, bills, taxes, blah-blah-blah...
BUT most important - IT IS our limited time, 24h/day which we have to split between our hobbies/work/family.
So, IMHO SUBSCRIPTION model for the games is outdated business model.
Yes, 50c a day is much less then I spend to the beer, but beer with the friends is much more fun for me. LOL


I have a real life. What part of "I play EVE" causes your tiny little mind to jump to the conclusion that I have no life as a result? It still costs me 50c a day or less, whether I'm playing or not. You spend more money on junk food per year than you do on EVE Online, I guarantee it. It's not expensive at all, you just don't want to pay. Which is fine, don't. But don't pretend it's any objective measure of overpriced.
I don't want CCP thinking about ways to grab players attention to get the money but I want them to make the game better. If you don't want to subscribe, don't do it! EVE survived for 13 years and do you think the other games will get there?
The restrictions are good because they keep Omega players from using Alphas to "beat the game".
If you don't like Eve payment model play your other games!
Keno Skir
#122 - 2016-12-04 10:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Miha V wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's cute, considering EVE is only 50c a day and all of its expansions are completely free of charge.
Literally all of them.


"50c a day" only if you pay $180 for the year, otherwise $20/month . It is OK if you play the only EvE game and do not have RL! :)
I play at PC also: GW2, World of Warships, TSW, RIFT, Wargame Red Dragon, Warframe... and more. BTW every single developer wants to be payed for his/her job. I am OK with it.
At RL I have to pay for my RC models(MAAC insurance + club) ~$280+/year, bike insurance ~$1000/year, downhill skiing/snowboarding $100+/day per person. Then mortgage, bills, taxes, blah-blah-blah...
BUT most important - IT IS our limited time, 24h/day which we have to split between our hobbies/work/family.
So, IMHO SUBSCRIPTION model for the games is outdated business model.
Yes, 50c a day is much less then I spend to the beer, but beer with the friends is much more fun for me. LOL


Isn;t it strange how you pay for all that and not once have you yelled on the forums about it. Imagine, your RC model crashes and the cheeky company expect you to buy another one.. You pay £100 to go snowboarding, but next weekend you must pay another $100 dollars.. You buy bike insurance and complain that you are not insured forever for 1 payment?

It seems glaringly obvious that most things function like this, what's the issue with a game working like this again?

Miha V wrote:
GW2, World of Warships, TSW, RIFT, Wargame Red Dragon, Warframe... and more.


You can't talk about other people "playing only EvE because they have no life" then list the 20 mmo's you play that keep you in your mum's basement mate.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2016-12-04 10:43:12 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
I don't want CCP thinking about ways to grab players attention to get the money but I want them to make the game better. If you don't want to subscribe, don't do it! EVE survived for 13 years and do you think the other games will get there?
The restrictions are good because they keep Omega players from using Alphas to "beat the game".
If you don't like Eve payment model play your other games!


You're preaching to the choir, mate.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Bivk Dvtt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#124 - 2016-12-04 11:25:49 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Shae is right, there is no need for alts


And griefers/scammers are great persons IRL

Thanks for correcting the record !
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#125 - 2016-12-04 11:30:03 UTC
Lunavera Poxicon wrote:
Just throwing out my opinion here.

I was so excited to hear about clone states and EVE going F2P. I knew there would be some restrictions as most MMOs that were once paid subs going F2P take that route. I missed playing this game and couldn't wait to log in again.

Right away it was clear the restrictions were heavy. Not being able to use ships I already had as well as equipment or even mining drones. I decided to give it a shot regardless and just play with what was available to see what kind of experience I could still get as an alpha state.

In my opinion, it is already too limiting after only 15 days of play.

Subs in gaming are going away. It was a great model 10 years ago, but now that players don't want to sink all of their time into a single game, play multiple genres, game with friends who have migrated to other games, don't have the money or even simply don't see the value in spending $10-15 per month on an item when they have choices that are one time purchases of $30-60.

Clearly EVE took a step in the right direction. My account is 5 years old and I haven't been playing for several years; now I am. The question is will I be playing in a month or two and my current feeling is no I probably will not be.

Players will spend money on vanity items. Ship skins. Avatar items. Immediate unlocks. Spell effects or in this case projectile/laser effects. If a player just started and they want a ship bad enough, they will drop the $2.99 you are selling it for rather than saving money up. They will spend the $.99 you are charging to quick train a skill that takes days otherwise. Other successful games offer that without a single limitation to the game and have more than 25,0000 players logged in at any given time.

The other option is to sell the game in its entirety up front with a trial available. Once it is purchased, no limitation. This model works very well too.

The current clone state offer is okay, but by no means enough to bring a player like me here for a long period of time. Which, I acknowledge that is just my opinion and only 1 of thousands. Maybe the current model works for EVE and you achieved exactly what you wanted.

You have a really great game, but the way I see it, for me, I already spent 4-5 months as a subscriber here years ago and eventually it wasn't worth the monthly cost. Putting limitations on the game as heavy as you did ensures players like me won't be here long.

Enjoying the game regardless, just disappointed in the heavy limitations.


This reads to me as a straight-up appeal for pay-to-win.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#126 - 2016-12-04 11:33:11 UTC
Miha V wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
What?

You have your dates mixed up. February is not November lol, nor is this my only character....Straight This is just a cyno alt. Maybe dig a bit deeper. Post history and zkillboard might be good places to start.

Good for you :)
I love EvE as well, but I do not accept their greedy subscription policy. They will die eventually do not keeping up to date with current games trends. I cancelled subscription to WoW, then EvE when I realized then I prefer to play another games for the weeks. It is stupid to pay for the service which I do not use. "Guild Wars", "Guild Wars 2", "The secret World" and so on use much more reasonable businesses model. It is not PAY 2 WIN, and eventually I spent more my $$$ for them buying in-game stuff and expansion packs LOL.
Regards.


Why are you comparing F2P and P2W games with EVE? The only thing they have in common is that they are all games.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#127 - 2016-12-04 11:34:22 UTC
Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Lunavera Poxicon wrote:
Just throwing out my opinion here.

I was so excited to hear about clone states and EVE going F2P. I knew there would be some restrictions as most MMOs that were once paid subs going F2P take that route. I missed playing this game and couldn't wait to log in again.

Right away it was clear the restrictions were heavy. Not being able to use ships I already had as well as equipment or even mining drones. I decided to give it a shot regardless and just play with what was available to see what kind of experience I could still get as an alpha state.

In my opinion, it is already too limiting after only 15 days of play.

Subs in gaming are going away. It was a great model 10 years ago, but now that players don't want to sink all of their time into a single game, play multiple genres, game with friends who have migrated to other games, don't have the money or even simply don't see the value in spending $10-15 per month on an item when they have choices that are one time purchases of $30-60.

Clearly EVE took a step in the right direction. My account is 5 years old and I haven't been playing for several years; now I am. The question is will I be playing in a month or two and my current feeling is no I probably will not be.

Players will spend money on vanity items. Ship skins. Avatar items. Immediate unlocks. Spell effects or in this case projectile/laser effects. If a player just started and they want a ship bad enough, they will drop the $2.99 you are selling it for rather than saving money up. They will spend the $.99 you are charging to quick train a skill that takes days otherwise. Other successful games offer that without a single limitation to the game and have more than 25,0000 players logged in at any given time.

The other option is to sell the game in its entirety up front with a trial available. Once it is purchased, no limitation. This model works very well too.

The current clone state offer is okay, but by no means enough to bring a player like me here for a long period of time. Which, I acknowledge that is just my opinion and only 1 of thousands. Maybe the current model works for EVE and you achieved exactly what you wanted.

You have a really great game, but the way I see it, for me, I already spent 4-5 months as a subscriber here years ago and eventually it wasn't worth the monthly cost. Putting limitations on the game as heavy as you did ensures players like me won't be here long.

Enjoying the game regardless, just disappointed in the heavy limitations.


This reads to me as a straight-up appeal for pay-to-win.


It is exactly that. This conversation has rolled around more times than I've had hot dinners. It's been analysed, torn apart, refuted, rejected, and rightfully ignored for years now.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#128 - 2016-12-04 11:45:12 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

It is exactly that. This conversation has rolled around more times than I've had hot dinners. It's been analysed, torn apart, refuted, rejected, and rightfully ignored for years now.


I suspect we'll be seeing another tidal wave of appeals for P2W in the forums and on Reddit now, as that's what the short attention span WOT crowd want.

The thing is that crowd will never actually get into Eve - the game it too complex, it is too indirect and requires too much longer term thinking and commitment. So I profoundly hope these appeals are roundly rejected by CCP, that the players who will never "get" Eve are allowed to figure that out for themselves and the whole alphas thing does what it appears to be designed to do - make the process of "recruiting" long term players to the game a bit easier.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson
Bivk Dvtt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#129 - 2016-12-04 11:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bivk Dvtt
Except EvE already is P2W as you need multiple displays and multiple accounts to really be able to do stuff and be relevant ingame. Hell, even CCP acknowledges it: "Power of 2"

By using multiple accounts and multiple displays, or even multi comps, you will be able to:
- Scout
- Have static market characters
- Run missions and sites extremely quickly, while having static eyes forewarning you at a glance
- Cyno your ships
- Static spam scam a designated scamming system
- Even gatecamp on your own

Now tell us with a straight face how this all isn't P2W

>b... but you can PLEX those multiple accounts!

And verily dedicated multiboxers do, because they've reached that state where their ingame grind is so efficient, and so riskless, that they can put out half a dozen billion isk monthly without breaking a sweat

Now, what about the players who weren't financially able in the first place to invest in multiple displays, even maybe multiple boxes, and jumpstart with RL money several accounts for a couple months? They are at blatant disadvantage compared to people blowing more money into the game.
It's not groundbreaking news, merely the elephant in the room.

The prehistoric and extremely static gameplay allows for alts multiplying gamer efficiency -as opposed to more twitch-based games where you can only twitch so much on different instances of the game-.
Really makes you think.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#130 - 2016-12-04 12:00:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Except EvE already is P2W as you need multiple displays and multiple accounts to really be able to do stuff and be relevant ingame. Hell, even CCP acknowledges it: "Power of 2"

By using multiple accounts and multiple displays, or even multi comps, you will be able to:
- Scout
- Have static market characters
- Run missions and sites extremely quickly, while having static eyes forewarning you at a glance
- Cyno your ships
- Static spam scam a designated scamming system
- Even gatecamp on your own

Now tell us with a straight face how this all isn't P2W

>b... but you can PLEX those multiple accounts!

And verily dedicated multiboxers do, because they've reached that state where their ingame grind is so efficient, and so riskless, that they can put out half a dozen billion isk monthly without breaking a sweat

Now, what about the players who weren't financially able in the first place to invest in multiple displays, even maybe multiple boxes, and jumpstart with RL money several accounts for a couple months? They are at blatant disadvantage compared to people blowing more money into the game.
It's not groundbreaking news, merely the elephant in the room.

The prehistoric and extremely static gameplay allows for alts multiplying gamer efficiency -as opposed to more twitch-based games where you can only twitch so much on different instances of the game-.
Really makes you think.


Owning multiple accounts is not Pay 2 Win. You still need to train those characters, you still need to operate them manually (no ISBox anymore remember), and buying more monitors or entire PC's has bugger all to do with CCP or Pay 2 Win. Someone, at some point, has to have earned the skillpoints if you buy injectors.

Pay 2 Win would be CCP directly selling complete ships, fully fitted. Pay 2 Win would have to be CCP selling characters with full skill sets that were never trained by someone else. Pay 2 Win would be CCP offering rentable alt's to people for use as Cyno's or gate campers.

None of what you've described is Pay 2 Win. Being richer than someone else and being able to afford PLEX is also not Pay 2 Win, unless of course you are implying that CCP control the world's economies. You can try as hard as you like to call EVE Pay 2 Win, but just like everyone before you for the last 8 years, you are wrong.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Bivk Dvtt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#131 - 2016-12-04 12:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bivk Dvtt
I perfectly know I'm wrong to try and explain self-evident things to people in active denial, and who want to keep the elephant in the room unnoticed by potential new players in a game that's been bleeding them

Pay2Win is : paying to have a clear advantage over someone

Now reread the previous post. Not my fault if CCP kept the gameplay stagnant which allows force multiplication for multiple accounts + multiple displays players. Key ability being scouts/static eyes, making grinding nearly failsafe and pretty much riskless.
And you don't set up multiboxing goodness by plexing one account at a time and adding them slowly, you jumpstart them with RL money.


You can play on semantics and vague or extremely narrow definitions all day, but the vast majority of gamers who have tried EvE understand that either you invest in alts (or have very good RL friends already playing this game), or you'll forever be a drone at the mercy of others if you need to get stuff done, and will be unable to mitigate risks efficiently. Those alts need multiple displays.


What do you need to understand that this game is literally Pay-to-Win? the more you invest in it, and the tools to play it, the more your advantage over a single account pleb grows.

Let's agree to disagree, EvE will never be Play-to-Win unless CCP starts selling screens :^)
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#132 - 2016-12-04 12:32:51 UTC
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
I perfectly know I'm wrong to try and explain self-evident things to people in active denial, and who want to keep the elephant in the room unnoticed by potential new players in a game that's been bleeding them


Please provide proof that the game is losing players, and not just losing alts.


Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Pay2Win is : paying to have a clear advantage over someone


Again, running multiple accounts requires funding, both initial and continuous, in one form or another. Playing with multiple accounts does not make each subsequent account cheaper. A person running 2 accounts needs to pay for both, and earn enough to keep both going. A person in a 2 man group only has one account to pay for, and can still earn substantial amounts of money.

Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Now reread the previous post. Not my fault if CCP kept the gameplay stagnant which allows force multiplication for multiple accounts + multiple displays players. Key ability being scouts/static eyes, making grinding nearly failsafe and pretty much riskless.


I don't know where you got this idiotic idea from, but keeping an eye on multiple accounts is not riskless. The more you have, the more your focus is divided, and the higher your risk of getting hit.

Have to make two posts to cover this nonsense.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Bivk Dvtt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2016-12-04 12:35:57 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
I perfectly know I'm wrong to try and explain self-evident things to people in active denial, and who want to keep the elephant in the room unnoticed by potential new players in a game that's been bleeding them


Please provide proof that the game is losing players, and not just losing alts.


Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Pay2Win is : paying to have a clear advantage over someone


Again, running multiple accounts requires funding, both initial and continuous, in one form or another. Playing with multiple accounts does not make each subsequent account cheaper. A person running 2 accounts needs to pay for both, and earn enough to keep both going. A person in a 2 man group only has one account to pay for, and can still earn substantial amounts of money.

Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Now reread the previous post. Not my fault if CCP kept the gameplay stagnant which allows force multiplication for multiple accounts + multiple displays players. Key ability being scouts/static eyes, making grinding nearly failsafe and pretty much riskless.


I don't know where you got this idiotic idea from, but keeping an eye on multiple accounts is not riskless. The more you have, the more your focus is divided, and the higher your risk of getting hit.

Have to make two posts to cover this nonsense.


Thank you Dear for unconsciously proving my points by agreeing with all the postulates

There's hope yet
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#134 - 2016-12-04 12:37:57 UTC
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
And you don't set up multiboxing goodness by plexing one account at a time and adding them slowly, you jumpstart them with RL money.


How is this any different from running one account and then teaming up with friends? You still have to pay for it.


Bivk Dvtt wrote:
You can play on semantics and vague or extremely narrow definitions all day


There are no semantics or narrow definitions here. Just plain, cold facts. Nice strawman though.


Bivk Dvtt wrote:
but the vast majority of gamers who have tried EvE understand that either you invest in alts (or have very good RL friends already playing this game)



Or, and I know this will come as a shock to you, you just make friends in EVE, which is what 90% of people do, and have been doing since EVE first went live.

Bivk Dvtt wrote:
or you'll forever be a drone at the mercy of others if you need to get stuff done, and will be unable to mitigate risks efficiently. Those alts need multiple displays.


Or, and here's another shocker, you make your own corp and be the boss of it. You know, like EVERYONE ELSE EVER has done.

[quote=Bivk Dvtt]What do you need to understand that this game is literally Pay-to-Win? the more you invest in it, and the tools to play it, the more your advantage over a single account pleb grows.

Let's agree to disagree, EvE will never be Play-to-Win unless CCP starts selling screens :^)

A single account pleb, as you put it, can play just as well, and just as efficiently as someone with multiple accounts because the cost is lower and the risks are lower. It's just a matter of scale.




"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#135 - 2016-12-04 12:38:52 UTC
Bivk Dvtt wrote:


Thank you Dear for unconsciously proving my points by agreeing with all the postulates

There's hope yet


Show me, or shut up.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#136 - 2016-12-04 13:01:39 UTC
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
I perfectly know I'm wrong to try and explain self-evident things to people in active denial, and who want to keep the elephant in the room unnoticed by potential new players in a game that's been bleeding them

Pay2Win is : paying to have a clear advantage over someone

Now reread the previous post. Not my fault if CCP kept the gameplay stagnant which allows force multiplication for multiple accounts + multiple displays players. Key ability being scouts/static eyes, making grinding nearly failsafe and pretty much riskless.
And you don't set up multiboxing goodness by plexing one account at a time and adding them slowly, you jumpstart them with RL money.


You can play on semantics and vague or extremely narrow definitions all day, but the vast majority of gamers who have tried EvE understand that either you invest in alts (or have very good RL friends already playing this game), or you'll forever be a drone at the mercy of others if you need to get stuff done, and will be unable to mitigate risks efficiently. Those alts need multiple displays.


What do you need to understand that this game is literally Pay-to-Win? the more you invest in it, and the tools to play it, the more your advantage over a single account pleb grows.

Let's agree to disagree, EvE will never be Play-to-Win unless CCP starts selling screens :^)


a single account pleb? what a rude little stunt you are.

here you guys are again twisting a thread and it's oringinal comment and point into something totally different.

the F2P model CCP have given you fecks is what you've got now live with it or sub up!
Rei Y
Minmatar Citizen 90483936 Corporation
#137 - 2016-12-04 13:04:18 UTC
Alphas are NOT supposed to be played forever. That is NOT why CCP introduced them. Your vision of alpha clones differing from that of CCP is your problem.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2016-12-04 13:06:51 UTC
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Shae is right, there is no need for alts


And griefers/scammers are great persons IRL

Thanks for correcting the record !


How do you know they're not? Have you ever tried to get to know any of them, or are you just making assumptions based on their gameplay?

Are you about to tell me that the things people do in video games somehow reflect what they're like in reality? Because if that's the case, can you tell me why there aren't over 60 million people around the world stealing cop cars and running down hookers in the street with them? Cuz you know, that's how many copies of GTA 5 were sold.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2016-12-04 13:10:38 UTC
Rei Y wrote:
Alphas are NOT supposed to be played forever. That is NOT why CCP introduced them. Your vision of alpha clones differing from that of CCP is your problem.


No, actually, CCP introduced alpha clones to give more people access to the game to a certain degree, but that certain degree does not include a time restriction. If CCP intended these accounts to not be unlimited in duration, then there would be a limit to the duration, just as if CCP intended there to be no PVP in highsec, then they'd simply introduce a mechanic whereby targeting player ships in highsec was impossible.

No such limitations exist, however. So whether an alpha is 'meant' to be available forever or not is irrelevant. The fact is, they are available for an indefinite period of time as per the account owner's discretion.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Bivk Dvtt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#140 - 2016-12-04 13:16:41 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Bivk Dvtt wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Shae is right, there is no need for alts


And griefers/scammers are great persons IRL

Thanks for correcting the record !


How do you know they're not? Have you ever tried to get to know any of them, or are you just making assumptions based on their gameplay?

Are you about to tell me that the things people do in video games somehow reflect what they're like in reality? Because if that's the case, can you tell me why there aren't over 60 million people around the world stealing cop cars and running down hookers in the street with them? Cuz you know, that's how many copies of GTA 5 were sold.



I don't see that other gamers can make you lose months of grind in GTA in a couple minutes or seconds

However, in EvE, this is possible (and one of its selling points), and there are people who actively go out of their way to make it happen to random dudes, then bask in the glory of the hatemail.


Those people are seeking to extoll RL rage and pain out of others, isn't that a bit strange?